ECT True or False question (Billy Graham)

[Derf]

It seems like you're splitting hairs, here. But just to make sure, [MENTION=15685]musterion[/MENTION]: do you feel like there need be no repentance involved in the life of a believer? Or, asked another way, if there is no repentance in the life of a person, would you think that person is a believer?

If a murderer or adulterer or idol worshipper came to Jesus and said, "As long as I can keep doing what I'm doing, I'll believe in you", how serious do you think our Lord would take that person's belief?

 

[musterion]

It seems like you're splitting hairs, here. But just to make sure, @musterion: do you feel like there need be no repentance involved in the life of a believer?

You don't understand the real issue here so you're asking the wrong question.

 

[Derf]

You don't understand the real issue here so you're asking the wrong question.

Maybe, but if you're talking about salvation as a single happening at a single instance in time, there's something wrong. Jesus Christ must change us, and we must allow Him to change us, if we are to be in His presence for eternity. You can't have a salvation from sin and death if sin is still there. He promises to complete a good work in us, not leave us without that good work accomplished.

And a recognition of at least some responsibility for our sin seems necessary.

What sins do you think a believer can still be wanting to do, as he believes in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31)? Was not Paul telling the jailor that he needed to believe in Jesus as lord--as the one who gets to tell him what to do?

KJV Dictionary Definition: lord. n. 1. A master; a person possessing supreme power and authority; a ruler; a governor.

 

[musterion]

Maybe, but if you're talking about salvation as a single happening at a single instance in time, there's something wrong. Jesus Christ must change us, and we must allow Him to change us, if we are to be in His presence for eternity. You can't have a salvation from sin and death if sin is still there. He promises to complete a good work in us, not leave us without that good work accomplished.

And a recognition of at least some responsibility for our sin seems necessary.

What sins do you think a believer can still be wanting to do, as he believes in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31)? Was not Paul telling the jailor that he needed to believe in Jesus as lord--as the one who gets to tell him what to do?

KJV Dictionary Definition: lord. n. 1. A master; a person possessing supreme power and authority; a ruler; a governor.

What is the fundamental question I'm asking in the OP, as you see it?

 

[Derf]

What is the fundamental question I'm asking in the OP, as you see it?

It was a bit obscure. If your "true or false" was applied directly, there's no doubt that Graham said that, making the following statement true (in other words, Graham really did say the following).

"I have one message: that Jesus Christ came, he died on a cross, he rose again, and he asked us to repent of our sins and receive him by faith as Lord and Savior, and if we do, we have forgiveness of all of our sins." —Billy Graham

But I don't believe that was your intent. Rather, your intent was to differentiate between people who believe we have to repent of our sins in order to have forgiveness of all our sins and those that believe a belief in Jesus Christ is all that is necessary.

My point, assuming I've determined your point correctly, is that there is little point in differentiating the two groups. Or in seeking to alienate those that really do want to serve the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[musterion]

But I don't believe that was your intent. Rather, your intent was to differentiate between people who believe we have to repent of our sins in order to have forgiveness of all our sins and those that believe a belief in Jesus Christ is all that is necessary.

This is why I don't like talking to you. You never follow conversations closely. I do not believe that "a belief in Jesus Christ" saves and wasn't referring to anyone who does.

My point, assuming I've determined your point correctly, is that there is little point in differentiating the two groups. Or in seeking to alienate those that really do want to serve the Lord Jesus Christ.

Again...you don't seem to know enough about the issue to understand what I'm asking, even though I made it very clear in several posts.

 

[drbrumley]

I actually don't see anything wrong in that statement...am I missing something?

 

[musterion]

I actually don't see anything wrong in that statement...am I missing something?

My reasoning is explained in yesterday's post to Glory.

 

[drbrumley]

My reasoning is explained in yesterday's post to Glory.

ok :e4e:

 

[drbrumley]

My reasoning is explained in yesterday's post to Glory.

Post #31?

 

[musterion]

Dunno. Yesterday.

 

[patrick jane]

Isn't repentance, a change of mind and regret for past sins and even sins of today and tomorrow? An ongoing lifelong process?

KJV Dictionary Definition: repent

repent

RE'PENT, a. L. repo, to creep. Creeping; as a repent root.
repentance

REPENT'ANCE, n.
1. Sorrow for any thing done or said; the pain or grief which a person experiences in consequence of the injury or inconvenience produced by his own conduct.
2. In theology, the pain, regret or affliction which a person feels on account of his past conduct, because it exposes him to punishment. This sorrow proceeding merely from the fear of punishment, is called legal repentance, as being excited by the terrors of legal penalties, and it may exist without an amendment of life.
3. Real penitence; sorrow or deep contrition for sin, as an offense and dishonor to God, a violation of his holy law, and the basest ingratitude towards a Being of infinite benevolence. This is called evangelical repentance, and is accompanied and followed by amendment of life.
Repentance is a change of mind, or a conversion from sin to God.Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation. 2Cor. 7. Matt. 3.
Repentance is the relinquishment of any practice, from conviction that it has offended God.

 

[glorydaz]

Dearest, I agree with you but the point is, most people DO believe "repent" essentially means "stop sinning," because that's almost 100% of the time how they see the word used.

Yeah, which is a shame because they know themselves well enough to know they are not able to stop sinning. It, too often, turns people away from the Lord before they even have a chance to hear more. I've had people say right from the start, "I've tried to do what I think God would want, but I always go back to the way I was before", and like comments. They have no faith in their own ability. (imagine that)

Even if they also acknowledge and accept the basic meaning of "change your mind," they've overlaid the work of "turning your life around" or however they phrase it on top of the Biblical meaning...because that's how they see it used and that's how they hear it preached.

Agree.

When THAT wrong definition of "repent" is made part of a gospel presentation, a false gospel is being preached -- something added is being required of the listener that is not found in the saving Gospel of grace (that they stop sinning NOW in addition to trusting Christ's DBR for their sin and justification).

As I've said many times before on this topic: SHOULD people stop sinning? Yes. But Paul never made it a condition of salvation.

Defining "repent" as "stop sinning" does make it a work condition of salvation...something the lost person must do in addition to the work of Christ, if they want to be saved (Lordship Salvation is probably the clearest current example, but not the only one).

Yep, so, they end up trusting in themselves to "get 'er done", and it becomes bondage.

Truth be told, I don't even mention the "new creature" when I'm sharing the Gospel. The Good News is that salvation is a gift. So, I hear what you're saying.

There are those who are so sick of their lives the way they've been, that they want to believe they will be changed, but for them to think it's required in order for them to be saved is not good. Not good, and not the truth.

 

[glorydaz]

Isn't repentance, a change of mind and regret for past sins and even sins of today and tomorrow? An ongoing lifelong process?

KJV Dictionary Definition: repent

repent

RE'PENT, a. L. repo, to creep. Creeping; as a repent root.
repentance

REPENT'ANCE, n.
1. Sorrow for any thing done or said; the pain or grief which a person experiences in consequence of the injury or inconvenience produced by his own conduct.
2. In theology, the pain, regret or affliction which a person feels on account of his past conduct, because it exposes him to punishment. This sorrow proceeding merely from the fear of punishment, is called legal repentance, as being excited by the terrors of legal penalties, and it may exist without an amendment of life.
3. Real penitence; sorrow or deep contrition for sin, as an offense and dishonor to God, a violation of his holy law, and the basest ingratitude towards a Being of infinite benevolence. This is called evangelical repentance, and is accompanied and followed by amendment of life.
Repentance is a change of mind, or a conversion from sin to God.Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation. 2Cor. 7. Matt. 3.
Repentance is the relinquishment of any practice, from conviction that it has offended God.

The Bible has other words for sorrow....godly sorrow (which leads to repentance/turning toward God), or sorrow of the world (like Judas).

2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.​

So it depends on how it's used. In the old classics, repent means to change your mind about anything. 'I was going to the market, but repented and went to the play instead.' In the military, repent means "about face". You're going in one direction, and you turn and go in the opposite direction. You could say you regretted your first plan, which would explain your need to change your mind and go the other direction.


When God commands all men to repent, it means we are to turn to God....from unbelief to belief.

Repentance TOWARD GOD has nothing to do with sin. Repentance unto life....same way.

 

[glorydaz]

Hi andyc , and did you read Acts 26:20 , : DOING WORKS BEFITTING THE CHANGE OF MIND !!


What kind os works is it talking ABOUT , to prove you have a CHANGE OF MIND ??

Give it a try , andyc , please tell us ??

Have you read Matt 3:8 where John says , Bring forth therefore FRUIT meet for REPENTANCE !!

Name what the FRUIT IS , if you can , andyc or maybe one of your ACOLYTE will help you ??

dan p

The Fruit of the Spirit, and it's HIS not ours. :thumb:

 

[glorydaz]

To regret and turn away from. And for us that is sin.

That's like thinking you can get rid of a snake's poisonous bite by being sad and going off in another direction. Good luck with that.

 

[drbrumley]

And we will sin till the end of our lives,

What sin do you commit that you have to repent of in the here and now?

 

[Derf]

This is why I don't like talking to you. You never follow conversations closely. I do not believe that "a belief in Jesus Christ" saves and wasn't referring to anyone who does.

Ah. Then I'm sorry for getting the wrong point. Maybe you can help me to understand.

Again...you don't seem to know enough about the issue to understand what I'm asking, even though I made it very clear in several posts.

You mean like this:

As I've said many times before on this topic: SHOULD people stop sinning? Yes. But Paul never made it a condition of salvation."

If it's not a condition of salvation, then why bother stopping?

And what did Paul mean when he said:
[1Co 6:9-11 KJV] 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[meshak]

Ah. Then I'm sorry for getting the wrong point. Maybe you can help me to understand.


You mean like this:

If it's not a condition of salvation, then why bother stopping?

And what did Paul mean when he said:
[1Co 6:9-11 KJV] 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

excellent

 

[glorydaz]

If it's not a condition of salvation, then why bother stopping?

I know this isn't addressed to me, but I like the question.

Because we'll get taken to the woodshed? Feelings of guilt?

Because God actually is performing His work in us, and conforming us into the image of the Son. It isn't that we "bother stopping", but that He gives us the desire to please Him.

And what did Paul mean when he said:
[1Co 6:9-11 KJV] 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

He means what he says. Those without the righteousness of faith will not see God.