ECT True or False question (Billy Graham)

[Lon]

I’m going to disagree with you here. I see ‘would have’ as still having a choice of living for Christ and “couldn’t” as not having choice. Do you have supporting scripture for the idea that it is “couldn’t”.

I do, like Romans 9 Philippians 2:13 (I've given these and more already). A new creation, imho CANNOT produce but new-createdness.

I’m going to be honest and respectfully point out that this is an excuse. You say you want to be faithful to what the scripture says. I would respectfully suggest to you this isn’t it.
When a passage reads in a way that disproves what some hold as truth, all of a sudden we have to question the meaning of words. Words that we don’t question elsewhere in scripture except in situations like this.
What did they believe? It’s right there in the text. the gospel I preached to you Where they saved? Again, it’s right there in the context. by which you are being saved

Well, I didn't write that paragraph well, but no, not an excuse. Far from it. It is a desire NOT to be reading into it that makes me disagree. I'm skeptical BECAUSE I'm asking 'what does it say and what does it not clearly say?' So clearly NOT just an excuse. RATHER an unwillingness to be wrongly/wrongfully guilted by someone else's wrong interpretation of scripture. I don't mean to imply you are wrong, but rather that I have that check in place. It isn't 'excuse.' THAT implies guilt again. It implies something hanging over your head again. Love has to be the motivation.

I agree its relationship. Relationships are two sided and granted we are the weaker side. I also agree with we can’t go on sinning and be a Christian.

Yet, I don't at all fret about my marriag fe. Not a whit. You? Do I NEED some kind of warning or marital advice? I've been married only 28 years. Am I in danger? Doing something wrong? :think:

I don’t understand your point.
If sinning doesn’t affect our salvation, then why should we avoid it? Because we love Jesus? Absolutely but if we love Jesus and he saves us because we love him and yet we can live the life we want and still be saved, isn't our soul what really matters? Yes sin can affect us and those around us but this life is temporary so in the big picture as long as our soul is saved, it doesn’t really matter. It might actually help convert many more people to Christ if they can continue to live the life they want and still be saved. So I'm not really getting your point.

If it might help, why wouldn't you tell somebody? "Because they'd continue to love sin instead of love Jesus," right? What is the attraction? We want to be 'separated' from sin, not just the consequences. Most MAD and others like me don't 'want to keep sinning.' That isn't the point. The point is not worrying/groveling over it. David said "against You and You alone I have sinned." If it is as far as the East from the West, that's a good thing. Psalm 103:12

We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, 10 nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. 11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

So these people being destroyed before entering the promise land is telling us we should avoid sin? How does the destroyed part apply to us?

"Example." Does that mean they were completely destroyed and lost salvation? How do we know? What is the conveyance? SOMETIMES our fears get the better of us rather than reading things for clarity. To be honest, I'm not sure what 'as an example' or destruction means in these contexts. How would I know? At the least, if I give this to you, is that being responsible with God's word? I'd almost rather leave something in limbo than to take the fearful side of interpretations.

 

[turbosixx]

We have choices BUT most important is what Jesus is doing with those things. Ephesians 2:10

I don't understand this "what Jesus is doing with those things"

It was happening as he went through it. Jesus died and the thief met him in paradise. There he preached to these captives. 1 Peter 3:19,20

The way I understand the thief is that Jesus forgave his sins personally because he had the power to do that. I fail to see how he was saved the same way as we. He lived and died under the old law.
Would you say David is saved the same way as we?

2 Corinthians 5:17 John 3:3,5 Christ makes that one a new creation. Romans 9:21

If there is a question about whom He has chosen? Romans 10:13 for me.

No question about whom he has chosen but I don't see how these verses explain how someone becomes a Christian.

 

[turbosixx]

I do, like Romans 9 Philippians 2:13 (I've given these and more already). A new creation, imho CANNOT produce but new-createdness.

I understand God's choosing in Romans 9. What is your take on Romans 11?
Rom. 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Looking at this verse and the context, it's plainly clear that the choice is ours to continue to abide in Christ or we too will be cut off. These people have been grafted in, into Christ. I cannot see how this could be a situation of "never have been" in Christ.

 

[Lon]

I don't understand this "what Jesus is doing with those things"

A couple of verses again: John 15:5 I take it literally. "OUR" work is nothing without Him. Without Him, what is the point?

I take it for granted that Jesus isn't passive but it sovereign over his creation. Proverbs 16:9
(Colossians 1:17 Philippians 2:13 etc. etc.)

The way I understand the thief is that Jesus forgave his sins personally because he had the power to do that. I fail to see how he was saved the same way as we. He lived and died under the old law.
Would you say David is saved the same way as we?

Long discussion regarding the O.T. saints and salvation. I gave you two verses that said the Lord Jesus Christ preached to prisoners. I believe these had to know of the Lord Jesus Christ's work on the cross before they had access to the father. Until this time? They were in Paradise, Abraham's bosom. Does it make a lot of difference regarding any respective disagreement? :nono: Not much BECAUSE all access to the Father is by the Lord Jesus Christ today. We'd simply be arguing about O.T. saints. In some ways, it gets into the 'works salvation' discussion, but not so much that it is but a side-bar.

No question about whom he has chosen but I don't see how these verses explain how someone becomes a Christian.

Look up synergism and monergism, perhaps. I'm strictly a monergist. Theologically, I don't believe anybody can 'born-again' him/herself.
Synergism has you choosing God. Romans 3:10-17

I understand God's choosing in Romans 9. What is your take on Romans 11?
Rom. 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Looking at this verse and the context, it's plainly clear that the choice is ours to continue to abide in Christ or we too will be cut off. These people have been grafted in, into Christ. I cannot see how this could be a situation of "never have been" in Christ.

Question: Is it a warning or a condition to be met? In a nutshell, you see it as something within your capability to accomplish and something to follow or do. I see it as a condition that the Lord Jesus Christ MUST meet in you, or you (or I) are lost. IOW, I see 'provided' AS providence. "Provided the Lord Jesus Christ indwells you and is accomplishing these things in you." I see the goal of ALL of these 'warning' verses as telling people in the church to 'be sure' they are in Christ, NOT as 'keep your salvation.' You can keep 'assured' but you nor I, according to my theology understanding, can keep our salvation. 1 Peter 1:3-11 especially 1 Peter 1:4

Most Christians are Arminian. The rest of us that believe this way aren't as many. Thanks for at least listening and participating in this discussion. I 'think' if we of this belief get any headway, it MUST be scriptural and it MUST come across as Good News, and less a fight. I don't participate in many MAD discussions simply because they are heated debates. Jesus can win His own arguments. I'm just trying to make them and ensure they are scripturally substantiated. His Spirit is the only theology changer and I pray and attend to Him in these discussions. God must show the difference between our respective theologies. Seeking Him -Lon

 

[meshak]

A couple of verses again: John 15:5 I take it literally. "OUR" work is nothing without Him. Without Him, what is the point?

I take it for granted that Jesus isn't passive but it sovereign over his creation. Proverbs 16:9
(Colossians 1:17 Philippians 2:13 etc. etc.)


Long discussion regarding the O.T. saints and salvation. I gave you two verses that said the Lord Jesus Christ preached to prisoners. I believe these had to know of the Lord Jesus Christ's work on the cross before they had access to the father. Until this time? They were in Paradise, Abraham's bosom. Does it make a lot of difference regarding any respective disagreement? :nono: Not much BECAUSE all access to the Father is by the Lord Jesus Christ today. We'd simply be arguing about O.T. saints. In some ways, it gets into the 'works salvation' discussion, but not so much that it is but a side-bar.


Look up synergism and monergism, perhaps. I'm strictly a monergist. Theologically, I don't believe anybody can 'born-again' him/herself.
Synergism has you choosing God. Romans 3:10-17 Question: Is it a warning or a condition to be met? In a nutshell, you see it as something within your capability to accomplish and something to follow or do. I see it as a condition that the Lord Jesus Christ MUST meet in you, or you (or I) are lost. IOW, I see 'provided' AS providence. "Provided the Lord Jesus Christ indwells you and is accomplishing these things in you." I see the goal of ALL of these 'warning' verses as telling people in the church to 'be sure' they are in Christ, NOT as 'keep your salvation.' You can keep 'assured' but you nor I, according to my theology understanding, can keep our salvation. 1 Peter 1:3-11 especially 1 Peter 1:4

Most Christians are Arminian. The rest of us that believe this way aren't as many. Thanks for at least listening and participating in this discussion. I 'think' if we of this belief get any headway, it MUST be scriptural and it MUST come across as Good News, and less a fight. I don't participate in many MAD discussions simply because they are heated debates. Jesus can win His own arguments. I'm just trying to make them and ensure they are scripturally substantiated. His Spirit is the only theology changer and I pray and attend to Him in these discussions. God must show the difference between our respective theologies. Seeking Him -Lon

Lon, you and Turbo are not communicating well.

It seems that you keep avoiding his points.

I wonder why.

 

[patrick jane]

The "Proto-Universalism" of C.S. Lewis & Billy Graham...

The Devilish Doctrines of C.S. Lewis - https://youtu.be/GBSvyuFAqJEBilly Graham Denies Jesus is the Only Way - https://youtu.be/4Mn0ahs5TiM
14 minutes