toldailytopic: What role do good works play in ones standing with God?

[Nathon Detroit]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for March 30th, 2010 10:11 AM

toldailytopic: What role do good works play in ones standing with God?

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[Oh no... it's Sozo]

"This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men." Titus 3:8

 

[godrulz]

Eph. 2:8-10 Justification is by grace through faith alone, apart from good works (Titus 3:5; Rom. 4-5; Jn. 3:16).

Faith is the root, but works are the fruit (subsequent to conversion; stewardship, service, etc.).

Paul was not against works (Eph. 2:10) and James was not against saving faith alone (practical Christian living is his context, whereas Paul's context is doctrinal justification; a living faith will normatively be fruitful as we are in the Vine, but works are not a condition of eternal life like repentant faith is).

We stand before God righteous in Christ. Men do not see our heart faith, but works can be an evidence that we are transformed by Him (though false religion can also do good works like the Pharisees did without having a relationship with Christ).

The thief on the cross went to Paradise without any works. Someone who calls on the name of the Lord on their death bed is fully saved without a single work (Rom. 10:9-10; Jn. 1:12).

A Christian who is fruitless and useless will lose rewards (wood, hay, stubble vs silver, gold, precious stones), not salvation.

Faith vs unbelief determines destiny. Works relate to stewardship/rewards (even if they are crowns we cast at His feet to give Him all the glory...I am kinda hoping for a Ferrari).

 

[elohiym]

Works of any kind have no bearing on my standing with God.

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Cracked]

"for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,

not of works, that no one may boast;

for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk."

Ephesians 2:8-10 (YLT)

You cannot control God and force upon Him your salvation by adhering to law or doing good. However, God may give you (and has given) works to do.

I am reminded of the imperfect analogy of the child and the parent that is found in Scripture. We are God's children, and He is our father. In this way, I believe that God looks down with joy when He sees us reaching out for Him according to His language of love. This is not done to coerce or to control, but is a simple reciprocation of love. We are not like the disciples were for a time, arguing over who is best or first, we are not jockeying for position with God - we should be like children offering up love to God in pure response for His love for us.

Here's a little story:
Faith sat down at the counter. Before her were a few scraps of mismatched paper, a pen and some crayons. With singular purpose she picked up the pen and applied it to one scrap. Her hand moved quickly as she made marks upon the paper with the pen in an unorthodox grip. Faith's small face was drawn close to her work, and she seemed totally focused. She did not look up from her task or pause even momentarily; her feet dangled a foot above the floor and her toes wriggled as she crossed and uncrossed her brown feet.

A few moments later, I observed, she lifted up her head, eyes still surveying her work, though there was no hint of any critical thought - no furrowing of the brow or any indication of the strange faces we sometimes make when we attempt to decide if what we have done was "good enough." Faith then fixed me with large dark orbs and I could tell that they were smiling even before her lips betrayed them. "Daddy", she said, "I made a picture for you." "Let me see", I replied. There, on the paper, was a vaguely anthropomorphic figure of assembled with a myriad of scribbles and strokes. I could recognize a head, a body, some legs, two large spiral eyes, and a great big smile. "That is beautiful", I said, delighted. She said, "it is you, daddy." "I know", I said. "Thank you so much, Faith. I'll hang this up!"

I was delighted by her imperfect work, and thankful to receive it. This was no masterwork of fine art - no Rembrandt or Van Gogh. It was a simple messy scribble. Yet, it was precious to me (and still is). I wonder if God looking over the shoulders of His children as they fumble through works of love ever feels like I did on that day? Does He smile as He recognizes Himself in the pictures we reproduce?

Spirit driven works are always according to the will of God. More fleshy, unsure works, when done for the right reasons (not for righteousness sake, in reciprocation), are good as well. Works are a very good part of God's plan for each of us, to a greater or lesser extent.

Now, the question asked in this thread is this:
"What role do good works play in one's standing with God?"

Some parts of scripture, even in the Pauline epistles, seem to contradict each other here. Some verses talk about rewards, establishing a that one may achieve, at least, recognition for works. Others show completeness and same standing. This is a mystery to me. I do not question God's prerogative or His judgment. However, I am compelled to make a distinction here - it is one thing to do for love, yet another to do for reward. The first is always greater than the last.

 

[Oh no... it's Sozo]

created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

That verse does not appear in the Bible.

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." KJV


http://biblos.com/ephesians/2-10.htm

 

[Cracked]

That verse does not appear in the Bible.

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." KJV


http://biblos.com/ephesians/2-10.htm

Gotcha. I will be more careful around this version of these verses. However, it really doesn't change my position. Your quote of Titus is really at the heart of it, I think. Works cannot save us, though they are good. I may edit my original post to reflect this. Thanks!

 

[Nick M]

For people it matters to him. That is why he said governments should put murderers to death.

For eternity, more important. So important, he came in the flesh so we could be identified with them.

Good works in the flesh by me for eternity, filthy rags.

 

[TomO]

They play no role in my standing with HIM. lain:

 

[The Berean]

Works of any kind have no bearing on my standing with God.

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

They play no role in my standing with HIM. lain:

Given how the question in the OP was worded you are correct, sirs. :up:

 

[Newman]

Zero.

 

[chickenman]

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Rom. 4:5

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. II Cor. 5:18-19
​

 

[lucy]

None. We are saved by grace through faith alone. Good works are simply an expression of what has already taken place in the believer.

 

[Persephone66]

I've heard what you believe is more important than what you do.

I think it is rather silly.

 

[kmoney]

Romans 2:5: But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Romans 2:6: Who will render to every man according to his deeds:


Galatians 5:16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Galatians 5:18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Galatians 5:19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Galatians 5:20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Galatians 5:21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Galatians 5:23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Galatians 5:24: And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.


Romans 6:12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Romans 6:13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Romans 6:14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Romans 6:15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Romans 6:16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Romans 6:17: But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Romans 8:11: But if the Spirit of the One having raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One having raised the Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies live through the indwelling of His Spirit in you.
Romans 8:12: So, then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to flesh,
Romans 8:13: for if you live according to flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.


So in other words....they're kinda a big deal.

 

[Oh no... it's Sozo]

I've heard what you believe is more important than what you do.

I think it is rather silly.

"For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe."

 

[Ktoyou]

Works before salvation, no, as an outward sign of salvation, then our actions stand as a witness to the glory of God.

 

[Dena]

I've heard what you believe is more important than what you do.

I think it is rather silly.

I would have to agree. I'm not out to be "saved" from a pretend hell invented by men who love the idea of humans suffering for all eternity. Is this what is meant by "one's standing with God"?

 

[Dena]

Works before salvation, no, as an outward sign of salvation, then our actions stand as a witness to the glory of God.

And what about those who's outward works speak of God but they do not believe in Jesus?

 

[elohiym]

I would have to agree. I'm not out to be "saved" from a pretend hell invented by men who love the idea of humans suffering for all eternity.

The Hebrew scriptures reveal that on the great and terrible day of the Lord the wicked will be burned up. Mal 4:3. Many verses in the prophets describe the day of the Lord and the fire that will consume everything.

We are saved from that, like Noah was saved from the flood.