toldailytopic: The rapture. When will it happen and what will it be like?

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tetelestai

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So, the resurrections you quoted--immediately after Jesus rose from the dead--could not have happened and been "first."

Tom, I never said that the dead who rose from the graves in Matthew was a resurrection.

You falsely made the statement that Daniel's prophecy in Dan 12:2 was for "ALL" the dead to be resurrected.

I simply pointed out that Daniel said "MANY" that were asleep would rise from their graves, not "ALL"

But it's difficult to admit that one is wrong.

You are wrong about what Daniel prophesized. Daniel said "MANY" not "ALL"
 

tetelestai

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If you had just taken this one little baby step (admitting that Israel would be hallowing the Sabbath in the Millennium Kingdom and the New Heaven and the New Earth), then I could have taught you further truths that would have corrected the false teaching you've received. But alas you could not bring yourself to do so.

To do as you request of me, would take away from the finished work on the cross.

(Heb 4:7-11)

7Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


That is what the true sabbath is, to cease from your own labors, your own efforts, your own activity; to cease from your own works.

We now have the true sabbath through Jesus Christ.

The Sabbath day that the Israelites observed was a taste of what the true Sabbath would be.

Again Tom, read the book of Hebrews. Everything was fulfilled through Christ. We are in a new covenant. The old covenant has been fulfilled, and will never be in place again.

To claim that the old covenant and the law will be in place again in the future is to take away from what happened on the cross.
 

TeeJay

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Tom, I never said that the dead who rose from the graves in Matthew was a resurrection.

You falsely made the statement that Daniel's prophecy in Dan 12:2 was for "ALL" the dead to be resurrected.

I simply pointed out that Daniel said "MANY" that were asleep would rise from their graves, not "ALL"



You are wrong about what Daniel prophesized. Daniel said "MANY" not "ALL"

Tet, you are right! Daniel 12:2 reads "many." If I said "all" I erred. I may have been quoting from memory (I do that lots). And you made me rethink this issue and look at it more closely.

Daniel: "At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; and there shall be a time of trouble, SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION, even to this time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, every one who is found written in the book. And MANY of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Dan. 12:1-2).

This passage has to be referring to the Great White Throne Judgment when ALL the dead will be raised, for some will be raised "to shame and everlasting contempt." Lazarus and those who came out of the graves after Jesus's resurrection were the righteous saints "who would hear His voice." And they were not exactly "resurrected" but brought back to life and died again. I believe that these saints were symbolic of a "first fruits" that pointed to a future resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:4-5 and 13 and give much credence to Christ's resurrection. But I could be wrong and I will have to consider my conclusion? As you pointed out "many" could be referring to those saints who came out of the graves?

Jesus Christ: "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will LIVE. For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute JUDGMENT also because He is the Son of Man. DO NOT MARVEL AT THIS; for the hour is coming in which ALL who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth [rise]—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." John 5:25-29

Here Jesus is confirming Daniel's prophecy. He He uses "all" which I think for sure He is referring to the final resurrection mentioned in Revelation.

"Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works" (Rev. 20:11-13).

This is the final resurection Jesus referred to when ALL (for sure) will be resurrected.

"... Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished [end of Millinneium Kingdom]. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION" (Rev. 20:4-5).

This is the first resurrection immediately after the Tribulation which is future. But, at the time of the Book of Acts, the Twelve were starting into the Tribulation when God "cut off Israel."

Jesus told His apostles that some would not die until they saw His second coming. Some would not have gone through the nation of Israel (size of New Jersey) until they saw His coming.

For your benefit, I want you to read the following. Jesus gave His apostles twelve signs of the coming Tribulation. Were they fulfilled? You be the judge.

TWELVE SIGNS OF THE TRIBULATION

The Daniel Forecast

In Hebrew there is the word shabua which can mean either a literal seven day week or a period of seven years. We see this used when Laban tricks Jacob by giving him Leah instead of Rachel to wed. Jacob loves Rachel, has just worked seven years for her, and wakes up in the morning next to Leah. Laban then says to Jacob:

"Fulfill her week [shabua or seven years] and I will give you this one [Rachel] also for the service which you will serve with me still another seven years." Gen. 29:27

Knowing that a week can mean 7 years, Daniel’s prophesy is very clear:

"Seventy weeks [shabua, or 70 x 7 years, or 490 years] are determined for your people and for your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make and end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy [Jesus Christ]." Dan. 9:24

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks [49 years] and sixty-two weeks [434 years] [49 + 434 = 483 years]…." Dan. 9:25

"And after the sixty-two weeks [483 years] Messiah shall be cut off [crucified], but not for Himself [for us]…." Dan. 9:26

"Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week [seven years (the Tribulation)]; but in the middle of the week he shall bring and end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate…." Dan. 9:27

The Seventy Week prophecy was translated into Greek, along with the rest of Daniel and all the Hebrew Scriptures, in the Septuagent about 200 years before Christ. Jesus quoted this very prophecy when speaking of “the great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world…nor shall ever be” (Mat. 24:21, 24:15; Mark 13:14). The Tribulation is the 70th week of Daniel’s prophecy.

Two fascinating predictions of this prophecy are its timeline and the placement on that timeline of the Great Tribulation. First, it predicted to the very year, and to the very month (Neh. 2:1), and likely to the very day, the time of Christ’s crucifixion. Second, it predicted a final seven-year period (commonly referred to as the Great Tribulation), to occur immediately following Christ’s crucifixion.

This first prediction of Seventy Weeks (490 years) dates the exact year of the crucifixion. A command to “rebuild” Jerusalem (Neh. 2:5-8) was issued “in the month of Nisan, in the twentieth year of King Artaxerxes” (Neh. 2:1). Christians put forth two ideas on when this command was given.

One view uses the traditional dates for Artaxerxes, suggesting that this king reigned from 465 to 425 BC. If so, then his 20th year was 445 BC. Adding 483 years to 445 BC overshoots the time of the crucifixion by a few years. To correct for this, some scholars point out the difference in year lengths between Jewish prophetic years of 360 days and actual years of approximately 365 ¼ days. Adjusting for this variation, and for leap years and century leap years, amazingly, yields a date in the month of Nisan in the year that Christ died.

The other simpler view suggests that traditional history incorrectly dates the issuance of this command, which actually occurred in 454 BC. Adding 483 years to the month of Nisan, 454 BC, produces a date of 29 AD.

AD or anno Domini (“in the year of the Lord”) dating, common in Europe by the 11th century, began with a Monk named Dionysius Exiguus around 530 AD. Almost all scholars recognize that he was late by about four years, placing Christ’s birth between 3 BC and 4BC and His death in 29 AD. By this view, the first seven weeks (or 49 years), the time of Nehemiah and Ezra, witnessed the rebuilding of Jerusalem, King Cyrus’ emancipation of the Jews, and the completion of the second temple, dedicated in 405 BC (Ezra 6:15)


Most important in the above prophecy is that the Tribulation or the time of Jacob’s trouble was to commence immediately after Christ’s crucifixion. Jesus was to return to Israel at the end of the Tribulation (seven years). This did not happen! Why? Read on.

Jesus Preached the Gospel of the Kingdom

Question: Jesus did not tell His disciples about His resurrection until a few days before the Passover and his crucifixion. And then He instructed them to tell no one. And they did not comprehend it! Now, if they did not know about His resurrection, what Gospel were they preaching when He sent them out to preach to Israel? They were preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom--repent, be baptized, keep the law, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand (Mat. 3:2, 4:17; Mark 1:15, 6:12; Luke 13:3).

Moses did not come down from Mount Sinai with a Gospel of Grace, but with the Gospel of the Circumcision (Law). Jesus did not come to Israel with a Gospel of Uncircumcision (Grace), but with the Gospel of Circumcision (Law). Nowhere in the four gospels does Jesus preach grace.

Air of Expectancy

Possibly due to calculations based upon Daniel’s 490-year prophecy, the people of Israel were expectant that the time of Messiah was at hand.

"Now as the people were in expectation, and all reasoned in their hearts about John [the Baptist], whether he was the Christ or not…" Luke 3:15

The people had this “expectancy” at the beginning of John the Baptist’s ministry (Luke 3:2-14), three years before the Messiah was to be “cut off” and 10 years before the final completion of Daniel’s 490 years. Unfortunately, as masses tend to do, they became impatient and bored with their messianic hopes and outgrew them.

Over the next three years, despite Jesus’ preaching, that expectation waned. Jesus said that the people should know that it was their “time” (Luke 12:56) for the “visitation” (Luke 19:44) of the Messiah (Luke 1:68, 78). The Lord was angered (“Hypocrites!” Luke 19:42) and saddened (he “wept” Luke 19:41) that Jerusalem was unaware that this was her “day” (Luke 19:42).

Life in the Kingdom

Regardless of His disappointment, Jesus had prophecy to fulfill and a message to proclaim. He immediately set about “preaching the gospel of the kingdom” saying, “Repent…” (Mark 1:14-15), keep the law, be baptized, and learn how to live during the coming Kingdom. “The Kingdom of Heaven is like a grain of a mustard seed….” (Mat. 13:31). “The Kingdom of Heaven is likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.” (Mat. 18:23). Jesus was preparing Israel for life in the Kingdom which was coming soon.

Jesus Came Seeking Fruit in Israel

Jesus said, “Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Mat. 7:19). Such is life in the Kingdom. The Jews would have to produce good fruit. Jesus lamented that the Gentile centurion showed more faith than His nation Israel. In the parable of the fig tree, Jesus gives Israel a final warning:

"A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser [keeper] of the vineyard, Behold these three years [Jesus ministry] I [Jesus] come seeking fruit on this fig tree [Israel], and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it [use up] the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down." Luke 13:6-9

In the above parable, Jesus spent three years seeking fruit in Israel and found none. Israel is often referred to as the fig tree. Israel now has one more year to repent, be baptized, keep the law, and most importantly, accept Jesus as the Christ. After Jesus’ resurrection, Peter would incorporate a risen Christ into his gospel, and Israel would not only have to accept Jesus as their Messiah, but also as a risen Messiah.

Life in the Tribulation

In addition to Jesus preparing Israel for life in the Kingdom, He
also discussed in detail in Mat. 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, how to recognize and endure during the Great Tribulation. The discourse begins when “Peter, James, John, and Andrew ask Him” (Mark 13:3) “what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” (Mat. 24:3). Note that the apostles linked the “end of the age” with Christ’s Second Coming. This linkage is not inconsistent with Daniel’s 490 year prophecy in that God planned to complete all His goals for the present age by the end of the seven year Tribulation after which Christ would return (Mat. 24:29-31; Dan 9:24; Rev. 7:14 with 19:11-21). And for those who are of the school that Jesus was not planning to come back seven years after His crucifixion, I have one question: Why did He explain in detail and prepare them for the coming persecution, if they were not to go through it?

One More Year

In the parable of the fig tree, Jesus came three years seeking fruit in Israel, but found none. Despite His preaching, wonders and miracles, fulfilling of prophecies, pleadings, and weeping for Israel, the majority shouted “free Barabbas, crucify Jesus.” Jesus probably hoped, “I know they did not accept me when I walked among them, but surely they will accept Me now that I am risen from the dead!”

The Book of Acts

According to Daniel’s 490-year prophecy, Jesus was to return within seven years after His crucifixion. Jesus promised the Twelve that He would give them a Kingdom with the Twelve Apostles ruling over the Twelve Tribes of Israel. All was contingent, however, on Israel accepting their risen Christ. Peter immediately preaches to the Jews to repent so that the Father will send Jesus back:

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you. Acts 3:19-20

Jesus Promised to Return Soon

The following passages show that Jesus and the Twelve expected Christ’s Second Coming to occur soon. The actual expectation was that Christ would return so quickly and establish His Kingdom that not enough time would pass for all His disciples to die.

"…there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God." Luke 9:27

"…there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present [here on earth] with power." Mark 9:1

"…Ye shall not have gone over [through] the cities of Israel [size of New Jersey], till the Son of man [Jesus] be come." Mat. 10:23

Twelve Signs of the Tribulation

Jesus Christ prepared His apostles for life in the Tribulation and told them exactly what would happen to them. He gave them signs so that they would recognize the Tribulation. Now this may come as a surprise, even shock: The Twelve Apostles were starting into the Tribulation when Jesus cut off Israel. Let’s look at the twelve signs Jesus gave and see if they were fulfilled.

Outpouring of the Holy Spirit: The first sign Joel mentions regarding the Great Tribulation is the pouring out of the Holy Spirit. Just prior to His ascension, Jesus commanded the apostles “not to depart from Jerusalem” but to “wait for the Promise of the Father” (Acts 1:4 and Luke 24:49), the outpouring of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5). On Pentecost, after they were filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (Acts 1:5), Peter confirmed that “this is what was spoken of by the prophet Joel” (Acts 2:16).

Signs and Wonders: Jesus prophesied signs and wonders (Mat. 24:24; Mark 13:22) in the Tribulation. Peter quoted Joel’s prophecy of “wonders… and signs” (Acts 2:19 from Joel 2:30-31). The early Acts church saw the fulfilling of the promised signs and wonders (Acts 5:12, 8:7, 4:30, 8:6 & 13).

Earthquakes: Further “wonders… and signs in the earth” included three supernatural earthquakes. The apostles said a prayer modeled after Joel’s prophecy “that signs and wonders may be done” (Acts 4:30). God immediately answered that prayer by providing what appears to be an earthquake.

"And when they prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken…." Acts 4:31

"And behold there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven…." Mat. 28:2

"…who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that happened, they feared greatly….” Mat. 27:54

Beaten by Councils: Jesus warned His disciples they would be beaten by councils: “But watch out for yourselves, for they will deliver you up to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues…” (Mark 13:9). And that is exactly what happened after Christ’s ascension.

"And when they had brought them, they set them before the council… and when they had called for the apostles and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go." Acts 5:27, 40

“Laying on of Hands” to Imprison: Jesus said, “they will lay hands on you and prosecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons….” (Luke 21:12). Did this happen?


"And they laid hands on them, and put them in custody….
Acts" 4:3

"…laid their hands on the apostles and put them in the common prison." Acts 5:17-25

Arrests Lead to Testimony: Jesus warned his apostles: “they will lay hands on you… delivering you up to… prisons…but it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony” (Luke 21:12-13) What happened?

"And they laid hands on them, and put them in custody… However, many of those who hear the word believed…."
Acts 4:3-4

"…an angel of the Lord opened the prison doors and… said, 'Go, stand in the temple and speak to the people….'”
Acts 5:19-20

Martyrdom: Sadly, Jesus prophesied that those in authority would “kill you” (Mat. 24:9; Luke 21:16). In no time, Israel’s religious leaders wanted blood: “…they were furious and took council to kill them” (Acts 5:33).

The End Times Would Be Short: Peter and the other apostles really believed Jesus’ promise of an early return and a Kingdom. Contrary to what liberal socialists say, Peter and his crowd were not communists. Rather, they were being faithful to their Lord.

"Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added to you. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow….” Mat. 6:33-34; see also Mat. 19:29 and Luke 12:31-32

"…all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, and laid them at the apostles’ feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need." Acts 4:34-35

As prophesied, the Tribulation would be short. There would be massive destruction of properties. Government and religious officials would kill many believers. And Jesus would return soon and establish His Kingdom. None of the above is reason for long-term financial planning. The world, as they knew it, was about to end. And Jesus promised them that in His Kingdom, lost property for His sake would be restored a hundred fold.

"Verily I say unto you, that ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory [the kingdom], ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life." Mat. 19:28-29

God put His stamp of approval on this temporary socialistic program when He killed Ananias and his wife Sapphira for “holding back” part of the proceeds of their land.

Irresistible Wisdom: Jesus said, “I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.” (Luke 21:15)

"And there were not able to resist the wisdom and Spirit by which he [Stephen] spoke." Acts 6:10

"Behold, I will make My words in your mouth fire, and this people wood….” Jer. 5:14

The concept of “irresistible wisdom” appears only in two passages in the whole Bible (Luke 21:15 and Acts 6:10).

Sun, Moon, and Stars: According to Peter, the events of Acts 2 fulfilled the beginning of Joel’s Great Tribulation prophecy, indicating that Peter believed the Tribulation had begun. Peter did not stop after quoting the beginning of Joel’s prophecy. He continued with the more dramatic and terrible portion, showing Peter’s expectation that the fulfillment of this latter part of Joel’s prophecy was forthcoming also.

"I will show wonders in heaven above and signs in the earth beneath: blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and notable day of the Lord." Acts 2:19-20, quoting Joel 2:30-31

Jesus’ words were fresh in Peter’s memory, spoken only 55 days earlier:

"And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on earth…." Luke 21:25

"…the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars of heaven will fall…." Mark 13:24-25 and Mat. 24:29

Christ’s Return was Imminent. Peter said something that is almost universally ignored by Christians: “Repent therefore and be converted… that He [the Father] may send Jesus Christ….” (Acts 3:19-20). What was Peter’s point? “Men of Israel” (v. 12) if you repent, God will send Jesus back to us and we will get our promised Kingdom. But there is a condition! He will send Jesus back if you repent! For Peter knew that Jesus did not make an idle threat when He declared that if Israel did not produce fruit during the next year, He would cut them off. Then, any hope for Israel’s Kingdom would be dashed. It was the earthly Kingdom that Peter was working toward:

"Repent… that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ… whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His prophets since the world began." Acts 3:19-20

"Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have foretold these days." Acts 3:24

Although there were prophets before Samuel, Peter says, “from Samuel.” Why? It was through Samuel that God actually establish the earthly foundation of Israel’s Kingdom. For Samuel anointed Israel’s first kings, especially King David, whose throne the Eternal King Jesus Christ will one day sit upon (2 Sam. 7:12-14, 16).

The Apostles Preach to the Men of Israel

The apostles preached to the men of Israel, the common folks, before they declared their message to the leaders of Israel:

"But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, 'Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.'" Acts 2:14

“Men of Israel, hear these words, Jesus of Nazareth…”
Acts 2:22

They persisted knowing that the nation must corporately repent:

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." Acts 2:36

"Then Peter said… 'For the promise is to you [Israel] and to your children, and to all who are afar off…'” Acts 2:38-39

Peter’s reference to those “who are afar off’ is the settlements of Jews scattered in other countries (1 Pet. 1:1; James 1:1). Using the Temple as a meeting place, that Temple being the seat of the nation and the identity of Israel, indicates that that the apostles consciously worked toward the nation’s collective repentance.

"So continuing daily with one accord in the temple…"
Acts 2:46-47

[Peter said] “Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this?... The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus…” Acts 3:12-13

Old Testament Scriptures contain many prophecies concerning Christ’s coming, His earthly ministry, His death and resurrection, and Israel’s intended proclamation of the Gospel to the Gentiles. Early passages in Acts suggest that all the prophecies were on track and that Plan A was still in effect and that Plan B, the “casting away” of Israel (Rom. 11:15), was still future:

"Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began." Acts 3:19-21

Peter here offered the Kingdom to Israel, if only the Jews would repent. The “times of restoration” [see also Isa. 49:6, 8; 58:12] and the “times of refreshing” [see also Isa. 28:11-12 with 1 Cor. 14:21-22] referred not to a warm inner feeling of godliness, but to the kingdom. At this point Plan A, the prophesied plan, was still on track.

In Acts 9, God cut off Israel, as a nation, and commissioned Paul, “the apostle to the Gentiles,” to go directly to the Gentiles. Israel’s promised kingdom is on hold and has been so for the last two thousand years. God gave Paul a new gospel—the gospel of uncircmcision or grace (see Galatians 2:7-9). Failure to “rightly divide the word of truth,” or the kingdom from the Body, Israel from us Gentiles, law from grace, has caused all the denominational disputes and rifts that are alive today.

Tet, I will give you all the time you need to digest this. Feel free to discuss any questions you may have.

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Tet, I will give you all the time you need to digest this. Feel free to discuss any questions you may have.

Tom, you keep forgetting that I was a dispensationalist for over 20 years. I have heard all of your arguments. I have read many books by Lewis Sperry Chafer, read some Bullinger, read “The Plot”, and sat under a pastor that was mentored by a pastor from Dallas Theological Seminary that was taught by Chafer himself.

Your post is very long, but I will address some points one post at a time instead of spending all day with one post.

You said:

Israel is often referred to as the fig tree.

Israel is not a fig tree.

The fig tree represents religion.

Unlike all other trees, the fig tree’s fruit appears before its leaves.

Where do we first hear about a fig tree? In Genesis Adam and Eve covered their nakedness with fig leaves (the first example of religion). They thought they could do something good to please God.

Today, many believers (like the fig tree) attempt to please God by doing something good.

There are basically two species of trees that are used as metaphors in the Bible; the fig and the olive trees.

But it doesn’t stop there. There are wild olive trees, and cultivated olive trees.

And if that is not enough, the fact that Paul says that the wild olive branches are grafted into the cultivated olive tree is completely backwards from the way a farmer would graft in olive branches.

So Tom, the fig tree is different than all other trees in that it bears its fruit before its leaves, and the ingrafting of a wild olive branch into a cultivated olive tree is backwards.

Knowing these simple facts about the two trees should help in understanding what the fig tree and the olive tree represents.

Do you want to give the olive tree a shot? I bet I already know your answer.

Hint: Not all Israelites are Jews.
 

TeeJay

New member
Tom, you keep forgetting that I was a dispensationalist for over 20 years. I have heard all of your arguments. I have read many books by Lewis Sperry Chafer, read some Bullinger, read “The Plot”, and sat under a pastor that was mentored by a pastor from Dallas Theological Seminary that was taught by Chafer himself.

Your post is very long, but I will address some points one post at a time instead of spending all day with one post.

You said:



Israel is not a fig tree.

The fig tree represents religion.

Unlike all other trees, the fig tree’s fruit appears before its leaves.

Where do we first hear about a fig tree? In Genesis Adam and Eve covered their nakedness with fig leaves (the first example of religion). They thought they could do something good to please God.

Today, many believers (like the fig tree) attempt to please God by doing something good.

There are basically two species of trees that are used as metaphors in the Bible; the fig and the olive trees.

But it doesn’t stop there. There are wild olive trees, and cultivated olive trees.

And if that is not enough, the fact that Paul says that the wild olive branches are grafted into the cultivated olive tree is completely backwards from the way a farmer would graft in olive branches.

So Tom, the fig tree is different than all other trees in that it bears its fruit before its leaves, and the ingrafting of a wild olive branch into a cultivated olive tree is backwards.

Knowing these simple facts about the two trees should help in understanding what the fig tree and the olive tree represents.

Do you want to give the olive tree a shot? I bet I already know your answer.

Hint: Not all Israelites are Jews.

Tet, I'm exhausted. I can show you that Israel is the Fig tree. I gave you the proof that Israel was starting into their Tribulation. And I gave you undeniable proof that the Sabbath law will be in effect forever. I don't think we will ever agree. I'll see you on another post.

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX
 

TeeJay

New member
Tet, I'm sorry. I will continue if you like. I've been working hard these days putting up a 1500 foot cattle fence on my ranch. At night I'm all done it.

I am a bit surprised that you rejected Dispensationalism! Did I present any arguments that gave you pause?

I apologize for giving you that long, long writing on the Twelve Signs. I know it's a lot to read. I will try to address your posts. But if it's too long to address, that's okay.

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX
 

Butterfly

New member
"this present evil world" - Apostle Paul

Good luck. Only the reign of the Lord Jesus Christ will substantially and permanently change things.
Our goal isn't to change the world, but to call a people out from among the world.

AMEN BROTHER!
:cheers:



You must not have kids. I don't want a world where abortion and euthanasia are the norm. I don't want a world full of pollution or political tyrants. I do not want a world where Christians are persecuted and killed routinely. I don't want a world where women and kids are marginalized in education, vocation, etc. I don't want a world with sex slavery, hunger, poverty, etc.

Are you really that stupid?:bang:

Jesus Christ did not have kids, entered into a world of evil, death and destruction. Jesus Christ during His earthly ministry did NOT fight political battles. There was slavery, believers were killed and persecuted, all before, during and after the earthly ministry of Christ.

If Jesus did not change the evil world, then what makes you think you can? You :down: are a goof!

The only way it will change is when Jesus establishes HIS earthly kingdom. You, WILLIAM, have the mindset and spirit of anti-christ. I rebuke you!
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
It is true that there is no permanent peace until the Prince of peace comes. God has used men such as William Wilberforce to end slavery (contrary to God's will), others to save babies from abortion (contrary to God's will), others to reach the poor and change social structures (William Booth Salvation Army), etc. The Church is salt and light, not passive while Satan runs amok. There is spiritual warfare. There are those rescuing children from child prostitution and seeing their lives changed with the gospel, etc. You can sit back and criticize while the army and family of God impacts society with the gospel, practical helps (hospitals, schools, etc.).

I imagine you do not understand the local church so these things would be foreign to you.

You rebuke me? What a joke.:loser:
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
The Church is salt and light, not passive while Satan runs amok. There is spiritual warfare. There are those rescuing children from child prostitution and seeing their lives changed with the gospel, etc. You can sit back and criticize while the army and family of God impacts society with the gospel, practical helps (hospitals, schools, etc.).

You don't think Satan can do "good things" if it will help him pervert the gospel resulting in millions going to hell? You have no idea who Satan is, he will promote beautiful things if he gets the worship. He wants to be God. He isn't only behind strip clubs and crackhouses. He is the god of this world, and is running everything.
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
You don't think Satan can do "good things" if it will help him pervert the gospel resulting in millions going to hell? You have no idea who Satan is, he will promote beautiful things if he gets the worship. He wants to be God. He isn't only behind strip clubs and crackhouses. He is the god of this world, and is running everything.

I agree.

Which also means that Satan could be the source behind things such as dispensationalism or MAD.

Or Pentecostalism, Calvinism, Messianic Judaism, Reformed theology, British Israelism, Catholicism, Preterism, etc.

When you base everything that you believe about the Bible on what a few men came up with less than 200 years ago, you are putting all your eggs in one basket.

You better hope that Darby, Scofield, Bullinger, and Chafer were right.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
You don't think Satan can do "good things" if it will help him pervert the gospel resulting in millions going to hell? You have no idea who Satan is, he will promote beautiful things if he gets the worship. He wants to be God. He isn't only behind strip clubs and crackhouses. He is the god of this world, and is running everything.

Satan may be running Islamic Mosques, JW Kingdom Halls, Buddhist Temples, etc., but He is not running the Church of God that meets together in cities, towns, homes, etc. The mercy ministries of numerous organizations are not run by Satan. They are raised up by God, funded and staffed by the people of God, seeing countless lives transformed by the gospel.

The issue is individuals loved and changed by God through His people (we are the Body of Christ doing His ministry of healing, delivering, saving, serving, etc.), not institutions. You are throwing the baby out with the bathwater, overestimating Satan, underestimating God.

You can sit in front of your TV with indifference, but how dare you negate the ministries of those who lay down their lives to feed the poor, rescue the oppressed, etc. and preach the gospel in this context seeing eternal destinies changed.

You have an individualistic North American mindset. Your rejection of the Great Commission and Great Commandment leaves you useless and selfish, whereas others are global Christians participating in the work of the Spirit in these last days. Jesus is doing things you don't have a clue about. Rather than support this, you criticize?!
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Believers Will Overcome

Believers Will Overcome

We have been given the authority and power over all the power of the enemy. Whether you've read the headline or not, the enemy has been defeated. The only reason Satan is still god of this world is because The Body of Christ hasn't done the works Jesus did, much less the 'greater' works that He prophesied.

John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

We won't see miraculous things until we perform them.

Revelation 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

We're not going to see a miraculous intervention from God against our enemy, until we do what He commanded us to do:

Mark 16:15-18
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
As opposed to making 40 cliched posts per day on this forum?

Read my posts to atheists, Mormons, Muslims, JWs, nominal Catholics, etc.

This is not all I do. I am in the world, but not of the world. I am salt and light, serving in church as an elder and as an ambassador for Christ in my workplace and the world. I also am a father/spouse in my family.
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Every pulpit of every church, Mr. Conspiracy theorist?

Eph. 4:11-13 Poor Jesus, failed at His mission?

STP is just looking for more reasons to not go to church.

Anything negative he can find about local churches he uses as another excuse to not go to church, or participate in a local church.

Now his excuse is that a pastor may be really doing the work of Satan. Yet he has no problem believing everything hook, line, and sinker that MAD men such as Bullinger and Stam write.

Oh the irony!!!
 
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