toldailytopic: The rapture. When will it happen and what will it be like?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
- Status
Aimiel
Well-known member
That (obviously) is your opinion of The Lord, but He still loves you, and prefers that you repent, and believe His Word, rather than fight against it. :box:
Linda,
Please read my post No. 63. I laid it all out there. Many confuse what Jesus said to His apostles with the Rapture of the Body. For example, "two will be in the field and one will be taken..." This is not the rapture. The one will be taken in judgment. In the passages you quoted, this is Jesus Second Coming TO ISRAEL. At the time that Jesus spoke these passages, the Body of Christ was future, and was contingent upon Israel rejecting their risen Christ--which they did.
After you read my Post 3, if you have any further questions, we can discuss.
God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX
Ecumenicist
New member
I would agree if we were talking about Universalism without consequences, but we're not. We're talking about a purgative healing universalism - i.e. biblical consequences.
godrulz,
Definition of Resurrection: Lazarus, whom Jesus raised, died. This is not a resurrection. Resurrection to life if NEVER TO DIE AGAIN--PHYSICALLY.
Just to be sure we're on the same page? Of course, it goes without saying that Jesus Christ is the Resurrection. The First Resurrection of the saints:
"Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth [rise]—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." John 5:25-29
"…and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone who is found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars forever and ever." Dan. 12:1-3
End of Tribulation and First Resurrection
At the end of the Tribulation, Jesus will return and send His angels to separate the wheat from the tares—the righteous from the unrighteous. The Jews who have been killed during the Tribulation (“beheaded for their witness to Jesus”) will be resurrected to eternal life and will “reign with Jesus for a thousand years.”
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." Rev. 20:1-5
Great White Throne Judgment and Second Resurrection
The first resurrection is the resurrection of Tribulation saints only. At the Great White Throne Judgment, all who are in the graves and the sea shall be raised. Remember Daniel’s prophecy?
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt." Dan. 12:2
"Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." Rev.
The Rapture, on the other hand, is not a Resurrection, per se. It's that taking out of the Body of Christ BEFORE THE TRIBULATION. Paul conforts us with "we are saved from the wrath that is to come."
God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX
I have already addressed this twice Tom.
I will address it for the third time.
It clearly says perpetual BUT then says “throughout their generations.”
Therefore, your claim that perpetual means forever, is not true. What the Bible is saying is that the statute will be perpetual for a time period.
What is the time period? Answer: The time period started when God gave the statute and ended when the Jewish generations ended.
When did the Jewish generations end? Answer: 70AD.
So Tom, keeping the Sabbath ended when the Jewish generations ended. In Christ there is no longer a distinction between Jew and Gentile. A Jew is no longer God’s chosen people to be a light to the world. The Jews are no longer entrusted with the oracles of God.
The Jewish generations ended, therefore the perpetual statute to keep the Sabbath ended as well.
There will never be another time period when anyone has to keep the Sabbath statute.
All of this is explained in Hebrews, but you guys don’t read Hebrews because men such as Bullinger, Stam, Scofield, and Schafer have told you that it is written to Jews in the tribulation.
Daniel 12:2 says "MANY" of those who sleep shall be raised?
Yet you say "ALL"
The Bible says "MANY" and you say "ALL" are raised.
The Bible says different than what you say Tom.
BTW Tom, there is a verse in the Bible where "MANY" (not "ALL) bodies are raised from the grave. The only problem for you is that it happened almost 2000 years ago.
(Matt 27:52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
(Matt 27:52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Lazarus was resuscitation, not resurrection/glorification. The rapture is resurrection since this is our permanent glorified bodies vs die again (I Cor. 15 shows resurrections, not one general resurrection, each after own kind; Daniel is a generic statement, not proof of one general resurrection). Jesus is first fruits, but other resurrections include church/rapture, OT/Trib saints at His Coming, raising of unregenerate and dead millennial saints to the Great White Throne after 1000 years.
Agree!
I deny any kind of rapture principle, unless you are saying that a one time final coming of Christ can be called a "rapture."
For the record, are you amillennial? Are you saying at some point in the future there will be a general resurrection with all the quick and dead raised at the same moment for a final judgment? Are you saying there will be no earth, just heaven and lake of fire?
Sort of like that.
I think the believers will be taken to Heaven with Christ for a wedding. During this time all the stuff in Revelation will happen to the unbelievers left on earth.
Then there will be the Great White Throne Judgment, then the earth will be destroyed, and then the believers will return with Christ to a new earth and new Heavens.
This lines up with the wedding banquet parable in Matt. 22
New earth and new Heavens.
Tet, sorry I haven't responded yet; I've been busy. I will address them tonight.
One question, though, before I answer: What's your definition of "resurrection" (in the Biblical sense)? My definition is "raised physically never to die again." Jesus said that "I am the Resurrection." In Revelation He describes Himself as "I was dead, but now I am alive for evermore [paraphrased]." The reason I use "physically" is that as eternal spirit beings, we always exist spiritually even when we die.
God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX
One question, though, before I answer: What's your definition of "resurrection" (in the Biblical sense)? My definition is "raised physically never to die again." Jesus said that "I am the Resurrection." In Revelation He describes Himself as "I was dead, but now I am alive for evermore [paraphrased]." The reason I use "physically" is that as eternal spirit beings, we always exist spiritually even when we die.
God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX
"Perpetual for a time period." Tet, if you and I are going to have dialogue, we can't be illogical and intellectually dishonest. It's logically not possible to be perpetual and for a period of time at the same time. THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE! Will you please reread my Post No. 214. I gave you scripture that shows that Israel will be observing and "hallowing" the Sabbath during the Millennium Kingdom and during the New Heaves and the New Earth.
What is the time period? Answer: The time period started when God gave the statute and ended when the Jewish generations ended.
In Post 214, I gave you Scripture that shows Israel would exist FOREVER.
[/Quote]So Tom, keeping the Sabbath ended when the Jewish generations ended. In Christ there is no longer a distinction between Jew and Gentile. A Jew is no longer God’s chosen people to be a light to the world. The Jews are no longer entrusted with the oracles of God.[/Quote]
But God said that Israel would always exist (Post 214). Let me explain Paul's Galatians 3:28: Paul was explaining the difference between his gospel of uncircumcision grace and the gospel of circumcision.
Under the Covenant of Circumcision, a male child came under the Abrahamic Covenant when he was circumcised on the eighth day. (If that day fell on the Sabbath, the command to circumcise trumped Sabbath law.) A female came under this covenant if she was born to a Jewish father or married a Jewish man. A slave came under it if his master was a Jew or he elected to have his ear pierced and bonded himself to his Jewish master forever. Then Paul explains that in the Body, "There is neither Jew nor Greek [Gentile], there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you [females, males, Jew, Gentile, slave] are all ONE IN CHRIST JESUS" (Gal. 3:28). Israel's relationship with God is national or corporate; our relationship with him is individual and personal and the Body is an international entity.
The following shows that there were two gospels in effect during the Book of Acts:
"But on the contrary, when they [Twelve at Jerusalem Council] saw that the gospel for [OF] the UNCIRCUMCISED had been committed to me, as the gospel for [OF] the CIRCUMCISED was to Peter (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the CIRCUMCISED also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the GRACE THAT HAD BEEN GIVEN TO ME, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that WE SHOULD GO TO THE GENTILES AND THEY TO THE CIRCUMCISED" (Gal. 2:7-9).
Notice I typed "gospel for" but put "OF" in brackets. If you check the Greek, it is correctly translated "gospel OF" and not "gospel FOR." Pick up any older King James version and it is correctly translated "gospel OF."
Also notice in Galatians 2:3 that Paul points out that when he went up to Jerusalem (by God's command) "to explain that gospel which I preach," that the Twelve did not compel Titus to be circumcised. Many erroneously teach that after the Cross, the Twelve were not circumcising. If they were not, why would Paul be concerned that he would have had to circumcise Titus? Also, why would Paul have to explain his gospel to Peter and James if his gospel was the same as theirs?
A general resurrection would not allow for the Bema Seat judgment, Wedding, etc. It sounds like you are essentially saying that believers are raptured pre-earth wrath (trib) and then unbelievers are raised. So, you sound pre-trib rapture, but amill. vs pre-mill. I am not sure there is a common view or name for your hybrid theory.
Tom, the statutes were perpetual for a time period (Israelite generations)
You said the following:
Tom, the word "Olam" is used in Jonah 2:6 in the Hebrew Bible.
(Jonah 2:6) I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
Was Jonah in the belly of the whale forever?
Answer: NO, Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days, yet the Hebrew word "olam" is used to describe how long Jonah was in the whale.
So, your attempt to use the Hebrew word "olam" as proof that the statutes given to the Israelites never ended has been defeated.
Tet, please write me back and tell me that this is not your best argument? Isn't it obvious to you what Jonah is saying here? He's inside this fish, without hope, lost forever. "...yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption." We are all like Jonah, lost forever. But Jesus snatches us up from the jaws of death, so to speak. Jesus Himself was in Sheol, or Abraham's bosom" for the three days when His physical body lay in the grave. During these three days, Jesus's body did not decay, and Israel celebrated the Feast of Unleavened Bread (which does not decay because it has no yeast). And God the Father and the Holy Spirit brought Him up. Jesus used this metaphor when asked by the Pharisees for a sign. Jesus responded that the only sign they would see was the sign of Jonah's three days in the whale. Jonah was brought up just as Jesus was brought up.
Tet, I notice you ignored my Scriptural proof to you that Israel will be hallowing the Sabbath during the Millennial Kingdom and during the New Heaven and the New Earth. I want to stay with just the Sabbath at this time, but I can show you that circumcision is also a perpetual statute, and the Feast of Passover, and Feast of Atonement. And, I showed you that the Twelve Tribes will be engraved on the walls of the New Jerusalem. And I showed you that the Twelve will also be engraved on the walls (who will rule over the Twelve Tribes). Tet, I don't just want to win a debate. I want you to see the truth. You have been given a false teaching at some point in your life. But it's okay to admit you have been misled. It's not okay to continue in error with a hard heart.
I have not answered you on Resurrection. I'm waiting for your definition of Resurrection. My definition is to be raised from death physically never to die again. We all exist in the spirit even when we are dead.
Just so you will know that I'm not trying to trick you: Lazarus died a second time. There are only two resurrections not counting Jesus, for Jesus IS THE RESURRECTION. I want you to look in your Bible and find the phrase, "This is the first resurrection." Maybe if you find it yourself, you'll believe it. If I give it to you, you will argue with me, for some reason?
God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX
Yep. The great and awsome day of the Lord is judgement and wrath. Not the departure of the church.
It was your best argument.
I showed you three times that the statutes ended when the Jewish generations ended in 70AD. It was your best argument to use "olam", which didn't help your arguement.
That's like saying: "do you still beat your wife"
First, you think that Israel means Jews, second no one will be hallowing the sabbath in the future, and third, there will be no millennial kingdom in the future.
The sabbath, circumcision, and the feasts ended Tom, and will NEVER be observed again. Jesus said: "It is finished."
You don't even understand that 10 of the 12 tribes are not Jews.
Tom, you have been brainwashed by Bullinger. You have a case of Bullingerism. Everything you post was said by Bullinger over a hundred years ago.
I was misled by believing dispensationalism was the truth. I believed dispensationalism for over 20 years.
So, yes I was misled by listening to pastors that preached what Darby, Scofield, Chafer and other dispensationalists made up.
Who said anything about a hard heart? The only people with hard hearts are dispensationalists who continue to folllow a man made belief system instead of believing what the Bible says.
Yes you did, and you falsely said that Daniel's prophecy said something it didn't. That is what dispensationalism does to people, it makes them twist scripture to make scripture fit their man made belief system.
I agree with your definition, but disagree that there were three resurrections. There was only one resurrection.
Tet, You have to admit I tried?
I think I did show that your understanding of Scripture is flawed. For anyone reading our posts, the proof is irrefragible. But it's difficult to admit that one is wrong. God has the same problem getting unbelievers to accept Him. No one likes to be wrong. "Jesus is the Truth," and the Truth is offensive for those who do not want to accept it.
If you had just taken this one little baby step (admitting that Israel would be hallowing the Sabbath in the Millennium Kingdom and the New Heaven and the New Earth), then I could have taught you further truths that would have corrected the false teaching you've received. But alas you could not bring yourself to do so.
I did not say there were "three" resurrections. There are two. The Rapture is not a resurrection per se, and Jesus is the Resurrection. Did you look for the phrase, "This is the first resurrection"? I know you did, but you failed to mention it. This phrase proves conclusively that there can't be two "first" resurrections. So, the resurrections you quoted--immediately after Jesus rose from the dead--could not have happened and been "first." That's not possible! You now have a conundrum of the first order that is irreconcileable unless you admit what's true and what's not true. That will take humility on your part.
The reason I did not address your Daniel challenge of "many" is because I was waiting for your definition of "resurrection." If I answer it would it make any difference?
You have much to learn, Grasshopper.
God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX
- Status