toldailytopic: Should business owners have the right to not serve a gay customer?

[Alate_One]

Let's take your "reasoning" to another level: a Christian pastor.

"He is a pastor, he marries people..."

Private property rights are God-given rights guaranteed to US citizens through the First Amendment. Whether it's a baker who has the right to deny service because of religious beliefs, or it's an ordained minister who doesn't want to "marry" to homosexuals.
http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/property-rights-and-the-first-amendment/

The rules come off for religious organizations. They are legally allowed to discriminate. They already discriminate against heterosexuals.

Many Christian colleges hire only people they've determined to be Christians. Many pastors will not marry you if you haven't gone through their counseling program.

This fear is not based on reality.

 

[bybee]

Let's take your "reasoning" to another level: a Christian pastor.

"He is a pastor, he marries people..."

Private property rights are God-given rights guaranteed to US citizens through the First Amendment. Whether it's a baker who has the right to deny service because of religious beliefs, or it's an ordained minister who doesn't want to "marry" to homosexuals.
http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/property-rights-and-the-first-amendment/

I'm conflicted on this. My husband and I were small business people. We worked like dogs to build up a nice business. We employed many good people and paid taxes through the nose!
There was a certain group of business men who were known for either not paying their bills at all or for being extremely late with payment.
My husband told them "If you want me to do the work it is PAYMENT IN FULL UP FRONT. They screamed and whined but they paid.
A business is not a religion. In our multicultural society we must find a way to get along. That doesn't mean compromising our own morals or values.
My home is my sanctum sanctorum as well as my person. But in my place of business?

 

[Bright Raven]

Yes, its called private enterprise and as has already been expressed,service can be refused to anyone for any reason.

 

[Town Heretic]

Yes, its called private enterprise and as has already been expressed,service can be refused to anyone for any reason.

:nono: The Federal Civil Rights Act guarantees "full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin."

Beyond that the courts have required the showing of a legitimate business interest being served, as opposed to a personal one.

 

[Quincy]

Yes they should have the right to, even if it isn't the smartest business choice.

 

[Sherman]

ACTIVISTS CALL FOR BOYCOTT ON CAKE SHOP AFTER OWNER REFUSES TO BAKE GAY WEDDING CAKE

Move over Chick-fil-A. There’s a new business getting heat for its stance on gay marriage. Masterpiece Cake Shop in Lakewood, Colorado, is facing critics who are calling for a boycott after it refused to make a cake for a same-sex couple.

Dave Mullin and Charlie Craig, who went to the shop earlier this month to ask about having a cake made for their wedding, say they dated for two years before getting engaged. After only seconds of entering Masterpiece, they claim that owner Jack Phillips turned them away.

- Source

Good for Jack Phillips and Masterpiece Cake Shop! No business should be required to do something that violates the standards of its owner. The Cake Shop isn't a public institution. It is privately owned. As a private business it has the right to turn away or serve anyone they wish even if their choice of customer they turn away maybe reprehensible to us. Sometimes their choices can cause a backlash. The government should not be in the business of telling private businesses who they can serve. They need to keep their grimy paws out that let private companies run themselves. Bottom line, business shouldn't be required to serve perverts. Perverts do not deserve to be a protected class.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Well in all seriousness what kind of neo-Nazi would pay a Jewish kid?

One that wants his lawn mowed. :idunno:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

:nono: The Federal Civil Rights Act guarantees "full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin."

Beyond that the courts have required the showing of a legitimate business interest being served, as opposed to a personal one.

You have a hard time with these topics don't you?

Most of us enjoy discussing the "big picture". I.e., they way things should or shouldn't be regardless of current national or local law. Yet you... can't seem to get past the current regulations or legal mumbo-jumbo to have any type of meaningful discussion.

Again... the question isn't... "what is the current law regarding this topic?"

The question is... "how SHOULD this type of thing be handled?"

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Yes they should have the right to, even if it isn't the smartest business choice.

EXACTLY!! :thumb:

Just like the local cake shop Chick fil A may benefit from their stance, OR they might suffer from their stance on gay marriage. That's their choice (or it should be their choice) to make a stance on what they feel strongly about.

And people that disagree have the right to eat chicken elsewhere.

But when mayors and governors get involved and start making it illegal for people to open businesses based on personal beliefs we have lost all sense of freedom in this country.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

I'm conflicted on this. My husband and I were small business people. We worked like dogs to build up a nice business. We employed many good people and paid taxes through the nose!
There was a certain group of business men who were known for either not paying their bills at all or for being extremely late with payment.
My husband told them "If you want me to do the work it is PAYMENT IN FULL UP FRONT. They screamed and whined but they paid.
A business is not a religion. In our multicultural society we must find a way to get along. That doesn't mean compromising our own morals or values.
My home is my sanctum sanctorum as well as my person. But in my place of business?

Read the link on how private property rights are First Amendment rights, and then come on over to my thread (being that you're obviously a "good Christian") and tell us how we can all "jist get along".
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3164193&postcount=571

 

[lifeisgood]

EXACTLY!! :thumb:

Just like the local cake shop Chick fil A may benefit from their stance, OR they might suffer from their stance on gay marriage. That's their choice (or it should be their choice) to make a stance on what they feel strongly about.

And people that disagree have the right to eat chicken elsewhere.

But when mayors and governors get involved and start making it illegal for people to open businesses based on personal beliefs we have lost all sense of freedom in this country.

:thumb:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

No.

bybee I have a question for you...

Lets say you are the cake shop owner. A Muslim comes in and wants a cake commemorating the 9-11 attack on America. They tell you that they want a cake that looks like the World Trade Center Towers being hit by jet airplanes with cotton candy smoke and explosions coming from the impact. They also would like small fondant characters that represent the people jumping to their death from the burning towers.

Should you be forced to make such a cake?

 

[Nick M]

Well in all seriousness what kind of neo-Nazi would pay a Jewish kid?

Traditio is dumb enough to not know that Bill Levi,... well you get the idea.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

The rules come off for religious organizations. They are legally allowed to discriminate. They already discriminate against heterosexuals.

Many Christian colleges hire only people they've determined to be Christians. Many pastors will not marry you if you haven't gone through their counseling program.

This fear is not based on reality.

Obviously you know nothing about ENDA and hate crime legislation.

 

[bybee]

bybee I have a question for you...

Lets say you are the cake shop owner. A Muslim comes in and wants a cake commemorating the 9-11 attack on America. They tell you that they want a cake that looks like the World Trade Center Towers being hit by jet airplanes with cotton candy smoke and explosions coming from the impact. They also would like small fondant characters that represent the people jumping to their death from the burning towers.

Should you be forced to make such a cake?

No.
But if forced, I would use lard.
Seriously, I wouldn't do it. I would go to jail first.
I don't think that, across the board, my choices would, necessarily, be that extreme.
I would want to do business with any and all who pay and keep a civil tongue in their heads.
And, honestly, I do want the freedom to refuse to cater to those who offend me on purpose.

 

[Memento Mori]

You have a hard time with these topics don't you?

Most of us enjoy discussing the "big picture". I.e., they way things should or shouldn't be regardless of current national or local law. Yet you... can't seem to get past the current regulations or legal mumbo-jumbo to have any type of meaningful discussion.

Again... the question isn't... "what is the current law regarding this topic?"

The question is... "how SHOULD this type of thing be handled?"

If I'm reading TH correctly, he's saying that he agrees with the law in his opinion except in certain situations which may rarely occur:

Let me be as clear as rainwater then: I agree with the law, but I believe there should be exceptions under the application of a reasonable man standard. I gave you an example of that. I don't believe there should be many. And I believe that public accommodations, that make use of and derive great benefit directly from taxpayers are different from my forcing you to bring your lawnmower to my yard to cut my grass.

Frankly, I agree with TH. Businesses as public accommodation should be held to a certain standard when we consider discrimination. Just as they should not (and legally can't) discriminate against black people, Muslims, women, etc.

 

[Town Heretic]

If I'm reading TH correctly, he's saying that he agrees with the law in his opinion except in certain situations which may rarely occur:


Frankly, I agree with TH. Businesses as public accommodation should be held to a certain standard when we consider discrimination. Just as they should not (and legally can't) discriminate against black people, Muslims, women, etc.

I didn't think I was being veiled. :idunno: My answer to Bright Raven was as a matter of law because of the nature of his remark. Else:

You have a hard time with these topics don't you?

I think it's not an easy answer. I disagree with the want of exception in the law while disagreeing with your position as a general rule.

Most of us enjoy discussing the "big picture". I.e., they way things should or shouldn't be regardless of current national or local law.

I actually did that.

Yet you... can't seem to get past the current regulations or legal mumbo-jumbo to have any type of meaningful discussion.

You must not have read my last to you...I didn't give you an easy, one size fits all answer, but that's not the same thing.

Again... the question isn't... "what is the current law regarding this topic?"

Again, I didn't limit my answer to that any more than I ignord it. As MoMo noted and underlined, I wasn't unclear on both how things are and how I think of them.

 

[jde4zion]

The answer is yes because it's their business. Interstate commerce doesn't regulate religious conviction.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

No.
But if forced, I would use lard.
Seriously, I wouldn't do it. I would go to jail first.
I don't think that, across the board, my choices would, necessarily, be that extreme.
I would want to do business with any and all who pay and keep a civil tongue in their heads.
And, honestly, I do want the freedom to refuse to cater to those who offend me on purpose.

Great.

So why do you think the cake shop near my house should be forced to make the wedding cake for the gay couple?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

The answer is yes because it's their business. Interstate commerce doesn't regulate religious conviction.

And do you agree or disagree with the Interstate Commerce regulation?