toldailytopic: Shooting at the Arizona Safeway. How could we help prevent tragic even

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GuySmiley

GuySmiley

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Its ironic that on the news this morning they were complaining about the political climate in the US, and then blaming Palin for this shooting.
 
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champdefrene

Member
Lucky said:
Shootings happen everyday, all around our world.
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Maybe around the world, but not really where I live. In California (with a population of 37.3 million), 1,360 people were murdered with a firearm. In England and Wales, which has a population of 54.4 million, 648 people were murdered using any weapon.

Lucky said:
First follow then preach the Prince of Peace and condemn violence, but realize that it will not end until every knee bows before Lord Jesus and his kingdom. Then we will trade in our weapons for rototillers.
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Hmm, not too sure what to make of this.
 
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champdefrene

Member
aSeattleConserv said:
How can we prevent tragic events like this in the future? Put the progressives where they belong: in mental institutions.
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Many of the examples the blog cites of anti-right hatred are appalling, but aren't you simply falling into the same trap that you so vigorously denounce by using such inflammatory language?
 
GuySmiley

GuySmiley

Well-known member
champdefrene said:
Actually they do, when it's coupled with social change that makes ownership of guns a taboo. I think I only know one person who owns a gun, for hunting. If you take this argument ad absurdium then you can legalise anything, such as carrying firearms onto planes, or having abortions, or etc. The idea that 'someone, somewhere, might break the law' is sufficient to legalise it, then why have any laws to start off with?

Shootings of this scale are far rarer in countries with tighter gun legislation. In the UK, 0.17 people per 100,000 die from being shot, with a murder rate of 1.28/100,000 overall. Knife crime accounts for the highest category of weapons leading to fatalities. In the US, there is a murder rate of 5.0/100,000 with firearms being the main cause of death.

The UK has probably the strictest gun crime laws in the world, and there is a link between gun crime and murders.

The most recent attempted assassination was when an MP was stabbed last year. The MP survived and no one else was injured. Before that, the only thing I can think of is the Grand Hotel Bombing, Brighton, in which 5 people died.

This is not to say of course, that the UK is perfect, which it definitely isn't. It has one of the highest crime rates in the EU. However, gun crime is mercifully low.
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Why doesn't the UK ban knives?
 
Nydhogg

Nydhogg

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champdefrene said:
This is not to say of course, that the UK is perfect, which it definitely isn't. It has one of the highest crime rates in the EU. However, gun crime is mercifully low.
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It's also one of the most authoritarian countries in the EU.

ASBOs anyone?
 
GuySmiley

GuySmiley

Well-known member
champdefrene said:
Because knives aren't used primarily for killing, regardless of whether that's a person or an animal.

However, if the US banned gun ownership, then maybe its murder rate would be substantially lower. As it is in the UK.
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Guns aren't used primarily for killing. I know a lot of gun owners. Very few of them use their guns for killing. And even the one's who do use their guns for killing, use them far more often for target shooting.

Is the murder rate for knives in the UK acceptable to you? Why won't you ban knives?

EDIT: What is your prefered method for killing animals?
 
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champdefrene

Member
Nydhogg said:
Champ, doesn't that give you some pause at praising the merits of UK-like social policy?
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I have never said the UK was perfect. No country is perfect, nor will it ever be. However, on issues such as welfare and gun crime, I'm far happier with the state of affairs in the UK than in the US. I could list lots of problems with the UK, if you want me to, particularly in comparison with mainland Europe. However, on most of the things which concern me most, and where other EU countries do better, the US still lags behind.
 
Nydhogg

Nydhogg

New member
We've slipped a lot on freedom issues lately.

Y'know, we used to have protection from searches and seizures and that kind of neat stuff.
 
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champdefrene

Member
GuySmiley said:
Guns aren't used primarily for killing. I know a lot of gun owners. Very few of them use their guns for killing. And even the one's who do use their guns for killing, use them far more often for target shooting.

Is the murder rate for knives in the UK acceptable to you? Why won't you ban knives?

EDIT: What is your prefered method for killing animals?
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1) The murder rates for knives in the UK aren't acceptable, but unfortunately, knives are important for a huge range of various jobs. As pointed out, there have been amnesties on knives where people hand them in. It is also against the law to carry knives in public.

2) For rats, poison. For larger animals such as foxes, guns. Farmers are allowed to own guns for killing animals, but the licensing laws are very strict. Also, most culls of animals are carried out by government agencies such as the Forestry Commission. Luckily in the UK, we don't have animals like wolves or bears. If that was a risk, then gun ownership is more acceptable. However, since the highest rates of murder are in DC, that's not a particularly effective argument.
 
GuySmiley

GuySmiley

Well-known member
champdefrene said:
1) The murder rates for knives in the UK aren't acceptable, but unfortunately, knives are important for a huge range of various jobs. As pointed out, there have been amnesties on knives where people hand them in. It is also against the law to carry knives in public.

2) For rats, poison. For larger animals such as foxes, guns. Farmers are allowed to own guns for killing animals, but the licensing laws are very strict. Also, most culls of animals are carried out by government agencies such as the Forestry Commission. Luckily in the UK, we don't have animals like wolves or bears. If that was a risk, then gun ownership is more acceptable. However, since the highest rates of murder are in DC, that's not a particularly effective argument.
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And DC has some of the most strict gun control laws in the US. Odd. Its not a simple issue.

What about gun ownership just for fun? Its fun to go to a range and shoot targets. Like archery.
 
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champdefrene

Member
GuySmiley said:
And DC has some of the most strict gun control laws in the US. Odd. Its not a simple issue.

What about gun ownership just for fun? Its fun to go to a range and shoot targets. Like archery.
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I understand it's not a simple issue. As I said earlier, legislation coupled with social change can reduce gun crime.
 
CabinetMaker

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
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genuineoriginal said:
Pass a law that requires that all citizens twenty years old and upward must carry a loaded firearm and at least 20 rounds of amunition whenever they are not in their home. This solution will make for a safer and freer country.
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Would that make things better or worse? Consider. Now you have a lot of people carrying guns. A person who gets angry about something might grab their gun and point it at somebody. Everybody else grabs their guns and then somebody misfires. When the bullets have finished flying, are more people dead than may have been if that one angry person had only been able to yell rather than grab a gun.

There was a period in American history where a large percentage of the population did openly carry fire arms and there is a reason why that is no longer allowed.
 
Nydhogg

Nydhogg

New member
champdefrene said:
As I said earlier, legislation coupled with social change can reduce gun crime.
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We gun nuts are numerous. At least on that issue, we're influential.
We'd "fight that one on the beaches". You know it. :chuckle:

Any attempt at gun control is DOA. It's time to keep testing laws and to expand Heller.
 
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