toldailytopic: Purgatory and limbo. Does such a place exist?

[Nick M]

Cruciform, what does the Bible say about reconcilation and the world in relation to the crucifixition and resurection of the Christ?

 

[Cruciform]

Cruciform, what does the Bible say about reconcilation and the world in relation to the crucifixition and resurection of the Christ?

Of course, it says a great many things on the subject. What is it, specifically, that you're fishing for?



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Nick M]

Of course, it says a great many things on the subject. What is it, specifically, that you're fishing for?



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

This is what I am fishing for. You to look in the Bible for the answer.

Cruciform, what does the Bible say about reconcilation and the world in relation to the crucifixition and resurection of the Christ?

2 Corinthians 5

19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Under what condition? Believe.

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new

That is what is finished at the cross.

 

[Ktoyou]

So when Christ died on the cross everybody was reconciled to God and saved. Nothing more needed - no repentance, no believing in Christ, no purification from sin.

Everybody goes to heaven. :roses:

You are being presumptuous. You do not know AMR and you make statements, not questions. When one believes in limited atonement, one would not be in agreement with your statement. All you had to do is read his avatar to know this.

 

[Bright Raven]

No, purgatory is a traditional teaching of the Catholic Church. Please show in scripture where such a place exists to validate the teaching. I believe AMR already stated that Limbo was taken out of Catholic doctrine in 2007. Anyone care to give a guess when the same happens with purgatory?

 

[annabenedetti]

No, purgatory is a traditional teaching of the Catholic Church. Please show in scripture where such a place exists to validate the teaching. I believe AMR already stated that Limbo was taken out of Catholic doctrine in 2007. Anyone care to give a guess when the same happens with purgatory?

A Catholic is free to believe or not believe in limbo. It is not dogmatic.

By the way, have you heard of the Limbo of the Fathers, or the Bosom of Abraham?
Where do you think Moses and other righteous were while they waited for Christ to open the gates of Heaven?

 

[Bright Raven]

A Catholic is free to believe or not believe in limbo. It is not dogmatic.

By the way, have you heard of the Limbo of the Fathers, or the Bosom of Abraham?
Where do you think Moses and other righteous were while they waited for Christ to open the gates of Heaven?

You think they were in Limbo waiting in Purgatory?

 

[Cruciform]

This is what I am fishing for. You to look in the Bible for the answer.

As I said, the Bible says a great deal about the subject you mentioned, and I affirm it all just as it is proclaimed by Christ's historic Church.

2 Corinthians 5 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Under what condition? Believe.

• First, the passage itself says nothing about "believing."
• Second, the "we" and "us" used here refer specifically to the apostles, and not to every lay believer. Thus, you're misapplying the text. It is the apostles (and by extention their appointed successors) as the Christ-ordained leaders of the Church who have received "the ministry of reconciliation" from the Lord, and serve as "ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through [them]." These apostolic ecclesial leaders we now refer to as the bishops.
• Third, in any case, this is certainly not the only passage in the New Testament that touches upon the topic you raised.

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new

That is what is finished at the cross.

Amen. No Catholic doctrine teaches otherwise.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[zippy2006]

Purgatory is a city in Colorado. There's a nice ski resort there from what I hear.

Limbo, however is not a place but a dancing game. I guess said place exists where ever you are doing the limbo.

Just doing it, or doing it well? :think:

If you're going to limbo, you'd best be sure and do it right, else I'd argue you're really not in limbo at all. :mmph:

 

[Cruciform]

No, purgatory is a traditional teaching of the Catholic Church. Please show in scripture where such a place exists to validate the teaching.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html​

I believe AMR already stated that Limbo was taken out of Catholic doctrine in 2007. Anyone care to give a guess when the same happens with purgatory?

Never, since, unlike limbo, purgatory is actually a formally defined dogma of the Catholic faith. Limbo has never been an officially binding teaching of the Church. At most, it has been a popular pious opinion.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[annabenedetti]

You think they were in Limbo waiting in Purgatory?

They sure as heck weren't in heaven - yet.

 

[chrysostom]

Purgatory is a matter of dogmatic theology, while abortion is an issue of moral theology. I'm not at all sure what you mean by "more important," since such a question seems to set one against the other, which is hardly a valid approach. Perhaps you can clarify...?

Also, you neglected to answer my previous questions:

How long have you been a Catholic, and what was the nature of your religious education and formation?​

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

I have been a Catholic all my life with over 16 years of education at Catholic schools
now
how do you explain 56% of Catholics voting for someone who is ok with killing a baby after it is accidentally born during a partial birth abortion?

isn't that covered in our catechism?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

So when Christ died on the cross everybody was reconciled to God and saved. Nothing more needed - no repentance, no believing in Christ, no purification from sin.

Everybody goes to heaven. :roses:

That seemed to be ASM's drift. I was questioning it

(OK, I should have stuck in a few questions marks)

Not my "drift" at all.

Christ's atonement was for those given to Him. The believing ones. No one else, which would be the heresy of universalism.

For more, see:

See: Psalm 34:22, Isaiah 53:8, Matthew 1:21, Matthew 20:28, Luke 1:68, John 3:16 (the Father gave His Son for whom? - according to this verse the Son was given for whoever believes in Him (the believing ones) not for the ones not believing in Him), John 10:14 -18, John 17:2,6,9; Acts 20:28, Romans 5:8-9, Galatians 3:13, Ephesians 5:25, Hebrews 10:14, Titus 2:14, Revelation 5:9.

As noted, see also my avatar to the <--- left of this post.

AMR

 

[chrysostom]

Christ's atonement was for those given to Him. The believing ones. No one else, which would be the heresy of universalism.

is atonement the same as redemption?

 

[Nick M]

As I said, the Bible says a great deal about the subject you mentioned, and I affirm it all just as it is proclaimed by Christ's historic Church.

• First, the passage itself says nothing about "believing."
  

• 
  
  Of course it doesn't, it is about what happens to those that believe.
  
  Acts 16
  
  30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
  
  31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
  
  Romans 10:9
  
  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
  
  Believe what?
  
  1 Corinthians 15
  
  3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
  
  4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
  
  If you really believed (believe in your heart) Christ died for your sin (chrsyostom doesn't either) you would be dead to sin, and alive to Christ. You would already be crucified for your sin and raised up in justification. As it sits, if you perished today, you would perish for all eternity.

 

[Nick M]

how do you explain 56% of Catholics voting for someone who is ok with killing a baby after it is accidentally born during a partial birth abortion?

isn't that covered in our catechism?

Because the Republican Supreme court told them it is ok. :duh:

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

is atonement the same as redemption?

how many Catholics do you think have read it {the Catholic Catechism}?

I'll bet it is less than 5%

the copy I have what bought by someone else
who
didn't read it
and
neither have I
but
I do use it {the Catholic Catechism} as a reference when dealing with AMR

Try that last bit I bolded and emended {} and let me know what you have learned. :squint: I have done my homework, now do yours.

AMR

 

[Cruciform]

...how do you explain 56% of Catholics voting for someone who is ok with killing a baby after it is accidentally born during a partial birth abortion? isn't that covered in our catechism?

Sure it is, as was already shown. However, only a comparatively small percentage of Catholics even own a copy of the Catechism, let alone actually read and study it. The fault, and the disadvantage, are theirs.

As for your first question, there is likely a collection of reasons why roughly half of voting Catholics voted for pro-abortion candidates. Everything from just plain ignorance of the Church's moral teachings, to considering abortion to be the lesser of two perceived evils, to a popular "cafeteria Catholic" approach to personal beliefs (which you seem to favor)---all of which are objectively and inherently wrong.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Cruciform]

Of course it doesn't, it is about what happens to those that believe...

As already observed in a previous post, these are not the only biblical texts in the New Testament which touch on these issues. Besides failing to address the question of what exactly constitutes "belief," there are many passages in which one's obedience (acts, deeds, or works) is assumed to be a component part of belief itself. Consider the following texts:

"By your stubborn and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. There is no partiality with God" (Rom. 2:7-11).

"Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and they asked Peter and the other apostles, 'What are we to do, my brothers?' Peter said to them, 'Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.' He testified with many other arguments, and was exhorting them, 'Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.' Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day" (Ac. 2:37-40).​

Many more biblical examples could be cited.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Cruciform]

>bump<