toldailytopic: Purgatory and limbo. Does such a place exist?

[Ask Mr. Religion]

before I comment on this I want to check with AMR to see if a Catholic must believe in either one

If you ever get around to actually reading those 750 pages you whine about, you will stumble across paras 1030-1032 on the topic of purgatory. :squint:

Note that the view draws upon the deuterocanonical text: 2 Macc 12:46. A text that does not even speak to the notion of purgatory.

Beware the man who pounds the table dogmatically who has never taken the time to actually understand his dogma.

Limbo? Er, no, if you keep up with the RCC's International Theological Commission. Denounced since 2007.

True answer: atonement means just that--complete reconciliation. It does not mean atoneability. Hence, purgatory is a contradiction.

AMR

 

[Persephone66]

Purgatory is a city in Colorado. There's a nice ski resort there from what I hear.

Limbo, however is not a place but a dancing game. I guess said place exists where ever you are doing the limbo.

 

[epilogue]

True answer: atonement means just that--complete reconciliation. It does not mean atoneability. Hence, purgatory is a contradiction.
AMR

So when Christ died on the cross everybody was reconciled to God and saved. Nothing more needed - no repentance, no believing in Christ, no purification from sin.

Everybody goes to heaven. :roses:

 

[chrysostom]

If you ever get around to actually reading those 750 pages you whine about, you will stumble across paras 1030-1032 on the topic of purgatory. :squint:

Note that the view draws upon the deuterocanonical text: 2 Macc 12:46. A text that does not even speak to the notion of purgatory.

Beware the man who pounds the table dogmatically who has never taken the time to actually understand his dogma.

Limbo? Er, no, if you keep up with the RCC's International Theological Commission. Denounced since 2007.

True answer: atonement means just that--complete reconciliation. It does not mean atoneability. Hence, purgatory is a contradiction.

AMR

hey

I just wanted to know if I have to believe in purgatory to be a good Catholic

 

[chrysostom]

Purgatory is a city in Colorado. There's a nice ski resort there from what I hear.

Limbo, however is not a place but a dancing game. I guess said place exists where ever you are doing the limbo.

I did ski there
so
I know it does exist

 

[chrysostom]

So when Christ died on the cross everybody was reconciled to God and saved. Nothing more needed - no repentance, no believing in Christ, no purification from sin.

Everybody goes to heaven. :roses:

you get the last word

 

[Psalmist]

So when Christ died on the cross everybody was reconciled to God and saved. Nothing more needed - no repentance, no believing in Christ, no purification from sin.

Everybody goes to heaven. :roses:

Universalism?​

 

[epilogue]

Universalism?​

That seemed to be ASM's drift. I was questioning it

(OK, I should have stuck in a few questions marks)

 

[Psalmist]

That seemed to be ASM's drift. I was questioning it

(OK, I should have stuck in a few questions marks)

That is how we learn.​

 

[Psalmist]

That seemed to be ASM's drift. I was questioning it

(OK, I should have stuck in a few questions marks)

That is how we learn.​

ASM? Or is that Ask Mister Religion, if it is AMR, I do not think that AMR is a Universalist.​

 

[epilogue]

ASM? Or is that Ask Mister Religion, if it is AMR, I do not think that AMR is a Universalist.​

Whoops.

I do get some things right sometimes!!!!

 

[Psalmist]

Whoops.

I do get some things right sometimes!!!!

Whoops . . . I have had few, it gives flavor to life. I had a few "Zingers" too.​

 

[Stripe]

I read C.S.Lewis believed it was a place one could choose to go.
It'd be cool if he would tell us what he thinks now. :chuckle:

Me? :idunno:

 

[Nick M]

So when Christ died on the cross everybody was reconciled to God and saved. Nothing more needed - no repentance, no believing in Christ, no purification from sin.

Everybody goes to heaven. :roses:

Is that what he says, and what does the Bible say?

 

[Cruciform]

hey, I just wanted to know if I have to believe in purgatory to be a good Catholic

You're a Catholic, and you have to ask this question...?



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Traditio]

The Catholic Church teaches that Purgatory exists. Limbo may or may not exist. It's unclear. I think it does, though.

The idea behind Limbo is that if someone dies without sacramental grace, but without personal sin, then it seems as though:

1. He can't be sent to Hell, since Hell is a place of punishment. Original sin doesn't incur punishment.

2. He can't go to Heaven, since Heaven requires supernatural grace. It exceeds human nature.

Therefore, it is fitting that there be an afterlife wherein such a person would be as happy as his human nature permits him. That is, something like a state of Aristotelian eudaimonia. Basically, some place for someone like Socrates.

 

[chrysostom]

You're a Catholic, and you have to ask this question...?



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

I have some more questions

does it say anywhere in the 750 pages of catechism that you can't vote for someone in the Democratic Party because it supports abortion?

 

[Cruciform]

I have some more questions. does it say anywhere in the 750 pages of catechism that you can't vote for someone in the Democratic Party because it supports abortion?

Yes, it does:

Abortion

2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73

My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.74​

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.76​

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"77 "by the very commission of the offense,"78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."80

"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."81

2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual. . . . It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."82

2275 "One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival."83

"It is immoral to produce human embryos intended for exploitation as disposable biological material."84

"Certain attempts to influence chromosomic or genetic inheritance are not therapeutic but are aimed at producing human beings selected according to sex or other predetermined qualities. Such manipulations are contrary to the personal dignity of the human being and his integrity and identity"85 which are unique and unrepeatable.
____________________
72 Cf. CDF, DÚnum vitae I,1.
73 Jer 1:5; cf. Job 10:8-12; PsÁ/I> 22:10-11.
74 Ps 139:15.
75 Didache 2,2:ÆCh 248,148; cf. Ep. Bárnabae 19,5G 2 777; Ad D 5,6G 2,1173; Tertullian, Apol.¹9L 1,319-320.
76 GS 51 § 3.
77 CIC, can. 1398.
78 CIC, can. 1314.
79 Cf. CIC, cann. 1323-1324. 80 CDF, Donum vitae III.
81 CDF, Donum vitae III.<ïR> 8® CDF, Donum vitae I,2.
83 CDF, Donum vitae I,3.
84 CDF, Donum vitae I,5.
85 CDF, ùonum itae I,6.​

Questions: How long have you been a Catholic, and what was the nature of your religious education and formation?



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[chrysostom]

do you think abortion is more important than purgatory?

 

[Cruciform]

do you think abortion is more important than purgatory?

Purgatory is a matter of dogmatic theology, while abortion is an issue of moral theology. I'm not at all sure what you mean by "more important," since such a question seems to set one against the other, which is hardly a valid approach. Perhaps you can clarify...?

Also, you neglected to answer my previous questions:

How long have you been a Catholic, and what was the nature of your religious education and formation?​

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+