toldailytopic: Once a person is saved can they reject that salvation should they chan

[genuineoriginal]

Jesus tells us what our work is...to believe on Him who God sent...but you believe in your works. And it says nothing here about the possibility of losing salvation, that is what you read into it.

Nobody can save themself through their works. Ephesians 2:8-9
Nobody can save themself through faith without works, which is dead faith. James 2:14-17
Nobody can save themself.

Jesus saves those who merit His favor through living faith. Ephesians 2:8-9
Salvation has two phases.
The first phase is the giving of the promise with the condition that it will be fulfilled for those that continue in the faith until His return. 1 John 2:25 Colossians 1:23
This is when your name is written in the book of life. Luke 10:20
The second phase is the actual event of salvation, and it happens at the resurrection for all who are in the faith when He returns. Luke 14:14

You can have your name blotted out from the book of life before receiving salvation if you don't continue in the faith. Revelation 3:5

You can not lose salvation after you have been resurrected.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Bologna! Plain and simple!

Yes, the false doctrines of TULIP that come from Calvinism are the biggest load of bologna ever served up to the Christian church.

 

[genuineoriginal]

That's a bunch of bull. The Bible was written long before Calvin was born and it teaches assurance of salvation. Just because Calvin is one of those who taught salvation could not be lost, doesn't mean those in the early church thought otherwise.

Try reading the writings of the early Christians before you accuse them of believing the same lies that Calvinism taught.

Let us therefore earnestly strive to be found in the number of those who wait for Him, in order that we may share in His promised gifts. But how, beloved, shall this be done? If our understanding be fixed by faith towards God; if we earnestly seek the things which are pleasing and acceptable to Him; if we do the things which are in harmony with His blameless will; and if we follow the way of truth, casting away from us all unrighteousness and iniquity, along with all covetousness, strife, evil practices, deceit, whispering, and evil-speaking, all hatred of God, pride and haughtiness, vainglory and ambition. For they that do such things are hateful to God; and not only they that do them, but also those who take pleasure in those who do them. (1 Clement 35)​

 

[genuineoriginal]

When sons misbehave, they are chastened. I beat my kids, I don't take away the life I gave them.

How does God say stubborn and rebellious sons are to be treated if they refuse to respond to chastening?

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.​

 

[genuineoriginal]

Paul often uses rhetoric to get his point across.

Yes, Paul uses retoric that many think are proofs that they have already received the promise when they ignore the conditional aspects of salvation.

Here is a good example of someone mistaking Paul's rhetoric for OSAS.

Teach us how the circumcised man is able to uncircumcise himself. Can he reattach what is dead and gone?

Is the believer not circumcised of heart? Is he then a new creation? Is the former dead and gone?

Tell us how one becomes unborn and goes back into that dead man.

 

[genuineoriginal]

This isn't speaking of the end of our life but believing unto that day of salvation. Many do not endure unto salvation...they turn back before entering in.

That is what I have been saying all along.

 

[Dialogos]

That is what I have been saying all along.

...and we finally land on salvation by works, of ourselves....

 

[Dialogos]

Yes, the false doctrines of TULIP that come from Calvinism are the biggest load of bologna ever served up to the Christian church.

Much better is the pelagianism where we save ourselves by our self generated perseverance.

 

[Dialogos]

Hebrews shows that the early church did not believe in OSAS.

No it doesn't. Hebrews is one of the best scriptural books to prove the Perseverance of the saints.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

How does God say stubborn and rebellious sons are to be treated if they refuse to respond to chastening?

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.​

God was dealing with the House of Israel in the Old Testament!
We, the combined Jews/Gentiles today, are, under Gods Grace!
A different situation, in case you don't understand?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Try reading the writings of the early Christians before you accuse them of believing the same lies that Calvinism taught.

Let us therefore earnestly strive to be found in the number of those who wait for Him, in order that we may share in His promised gifts. But how, beloved, shall this be done? If our understanding be fixed by faith towards God; if we earnestly seek the things which are pleasing and acceptable to Him; if we do the things which are in harmony with His blameless will; and if we follow the way of truth, casting away from us all unrighteousness and iniquity, along with all covetousness, strife, evil practices, deceit, whispering, and evil-speaking, all hatred of God, pride and haughtiness, vainglory and ambition. For they that do such things are hateful to God; and not only they that do them, but also those who take pleasure in those who do them. (1 Clement 35)​

What's; "(1 Clement 35)???? It's certainly not part of the inspired word of God, is it?

 

[Totton Linnet]

What, then, do we make of the words 'it is not too difficult for you to do'?

Both Paul and Peter declare that the law was totally incapable of saving the Jews because of the infirmity of the flesh...the fault lies not in the law but in the Jew's inability to keep all the law. And if they couldn't you can be sure no other people could.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Nobody can save themself through their works.
Nobody can save themself through faith without works, which is dead faith.
Nobody can save themself.

Jesus saves those who merit His favor through living faith.
Salvation has two phases.
The first phase is the giving of the promise with the condition that it will be fulfilled for those that continue in the faith until His return.
This is when your name is written in the book of life.
The second phase is the actual event of salvation, and it happens at the resurrection for all who are in the faith when He returns.

You can have your name blotted out from the book of life before receiving salvation if you don't continue in the faith.

You can not lose salvation after you have been resurrected.

*
I have noticed how in debating conditional salvation [as well as freewill] the longer the debate goes on the further the probationist depart from the bible into human wisdom.

Here apart from the reference to James you have departed from the bible altogether.

I agree that bible faith is the kind of faith which acts, it will have works, that is simply the nature of faith. But James does not say that works of faith saves he says works of faith justifies, that is to say PROVES. For example Abraham PROVED that he believed in the resurrection when he offered Isaac, for God had promisd that through Isaac would the blessing come...hence for God's word to come to pass [which Abraham believed implicity] God would either have to provide an escape or raise Isaac from the dead.

The bible says nothing about names being written in the Lambs book at the resurrection but of names being blotted out.

Neither Christ or His apostles speak about phases of salvation, phases of being born again, phases of being made new creatures...they all speak of growing in what we have recieved once for all.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Try reading the writings of the early Christians before you accuse them of believing the same lies that Calvinism taught.

Let us therefore earnestly strive to be found in the number of those who wait for Him, in order that we may share in His promised gifts. But how, beloved, shall this be done? If our understanding be fixed by faith towards God; if we earnestly seek the things which are pleasing and acceptable to Him; if we do the things which are in harmony with His blameless will; and if we follow the way of truth, casting away from us all unrighteousness and iniquity, along with all covetousness, strife, evil practices, deceit, whispering, and evil-speaking, all hatred of God, pride and haughtiness, vainglory and ambition. For they that do such things are hateful to God; and not only they that do them, but also those who take pleasure in those who do them. (1 Clement 35)​

*
I do believe the fathers [so called] had fallen away somewhat from the teachings of the apostles Gen. They had already begun to worship the eucharist.....yuk

 

[Totton Linnet]

Believers have biblical assurance from the Word and Spirit.

We don't need manmade OSAS false assurance (saved despite a godless/Christless life). We also mishandle the Word and give false assurance to apostates.

This is your strawman which you set up but in setting him up and pulling him down you do not also pull down the truth.

A godless/Christless life is not a saved life...a saved life is a Christ filled life, we are made one spirit with the Lord....so if He can be lost we can be lost.

 

[glorydaz]

*
I have noticed how in debating conditional salvation [as well as freewill] the longer the debate goes on the further the probationist depart from the bible into human wisdom.

Here apart from the reference to James you have departed from the bible altogether.

I agree that bible faith is the kind of faith which acts, it will have works, that is simply the nature of faith. But James does not say that works of faith saves he says works of faith justifies, that is to say PROVES. For example Abraham PROVED that he believed in the resurrection when he offered Isaac, for God had promisd that through Isaac would the blessing come...hence for God's word to come to pass [which Abraham believed implicity] God would either have to provide an escape or raise Isaac from the dead.

The bible says nothing about names being written in the Lambs book at the resurrection but of names being blotted out.

Neither Christ or His apostles speak about phases of salvation, phases of being born again, phases of being made new creatures...they all speak of growing in what we have recieved once for all.

Excellent word, Totton....the free will issue aside. :thumb:

 

[Totton Linnet]

:chuckle:

 

[glorydaz]

Yes you see them as polite requests...actually they are commands, God is not curtsying to us and begging our pardon.

It is the same fiat as "let there be light and there was light" so when that same word says to us come we do come. God is a great King.

But people are not free to come, they are in bondage....the religious man, whatever that religion is which is opposed to God is bound by that religion [it is a spirit of bondage] the drug addict is in bondage, the prostitute, the power seeking politician or business magnate, all these are enslaved and when the command to "come" is proclaimed even if they will to come that will is in bondage.

But with the proclamation comes the Holy Ghost in power to enforce the command "come" [at least in the bible, or in times of revival] and this He does setting free whom He will....everything is according to God's will....God's will is not resistible.

If you read the stories of the Wesley revivals you see it clearly this is just what caused the roarings and forments among the crowds...it is God setting men free.

And for all they say about John Wesley is was not the freewill preacher he was supposed to have been...he never asked for people to come forward to make a decision, such a mode of operation would have not entered his mind. He like the apostles commanded repentance and left the people in the hands of Almighty God.

This asking for a show of hands or coming forward is busybodying, interfering with the work of the Holy Ghost. And the half of those who come forward of "their own freewill" are not saved at all...but they are told they are, because they came forward, but they never repented. they came to the evangelist and his counsellors but they never came to Christ.

These are they who wreak havoc in the church, these are they who fall away.

I agree about the altar call, but people do, indeed, resist the call of God to repent. The Word says God is not willing that any should perish....yet they do.

 

[glorydaz]

God gave the law in the first instance knowing full well that the people are INCAPABLE of fulfilling it so He DOES command knowing we have not the ability or power to perform. It is this tension which [when people see their awful need] the command and the inability to perform the command which makes men cry out "what must we do to be saved?"

Ah, but we do have the ability to heed our God-given conscience. That no one can keep the whole law perfectly does not mean they are without ability to turn to God and be saved. They do have the ability to seek God, and they do have the ability to choose light over darkness....thus we hear the Gospel and believe. God doesn't believe for us, we must be persuaded by what we hear. Only then can we freely come.

Romans 2:14-15
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

 

[Totton Linnet]

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise [to return] but is long suffering to us-ward not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.