toldailytopic: Once a person is saved can they reject that salvation should they chan

[StanJ53]

Do you understand the difference between "BEARING FRUIT" and being the SOURCE of that fruit? Do you see the words, "The fruit you GET?" You claimed we are the source of the fruit, did you not? We bear fruit, and that fruit is of the Holy Spirit. Does the clay form itself into a vase, or does the Potter form the clay. The clay is not the source in any way.

Not the issue Glory, even though you try to make it an issue and continually deflect.. The verses I quoted in post #392 are the issue, which you said you would address, so ADDRESS them in the context they were supplied.

No, I said nothing about being "condemned" for not "producing fruit" because we don't produce anything. We are the vehicle through which the Holy Spirit produces fruit IN US.

Never said you did, but the Bible does.

Jesus is much more than the "water of life." The fruit we bear is not produced by us, nor are we the source of it. The fruit is the Holy Spirit's.....we are His workmanship. Therefore, we CANNOT BOAST in anything.

Not what the Bible says, and I gave you the verses. We bear the fruit and we suffer the consequences of NOT bearing the fruit.
Who said we can boast? Paul said we CAN'T. The Bible in total, ALWAYS has the answer.
Romans 3:27
Where then is boasting? It has been excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.

then Paul also says we can boast;
Romans 15:17 In Christ Jesus, then, I have reason to boast of my work for God.

So you see, it's a matter of perspective and attitude of the heart.

No, I'm not "hell bent" on anything. If you can't handle my comments, you are perfectly free to ignore them. I merely pointed out that we are not the SOURCE of any good thing. We are not to boast about any fruit...which is the Spirit's IN US.

It sure seems like it and the issue is NOT who our source is, it's what we do as I posted in #392 which you continue to evade.

I see quite well what the Word is saying and it is not saying we are the source of anything. The tree only bears the fruit, it does not produce it....nor is the tree the source. It seems like that's a very simple concept, and I do wonder why you find it so hard to understand what I have posted.

NOT what Paul said.
2 Corinthians 1:14
just as also you have understood us partially, that we are your source of pride, as you also are ours, in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The very reason we are not to BOAST is because we are HIS WORKMANSHIP. When you say "We produce the fruit," you are boasting of what the Holy Spirit does IN US.

Yes, but again, NOT the issue.
Matthew 21:43
Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.”

Seems your kind of thinking is what got the Jews in trouble because they ALSO thought they didn't have to produce good works or good fruit.

Here's my LAST EFFORT trying to get you to understand what I have said since you first mentioned our being the SOURCE of FRUIT OR GOOD WORKS. It's a matter of REST, Stan, not striving to produce anything.
Those who believe have entered into REST....have ceased from their own EFFORTS. That means we no longer strive to produce works of righteousness....we REST and allow HIM to produce His fruits of righteousness IN US.

AGAIN, NOT what Jesus or Paul say in the scriptures and you continue to deflect from my post #392, that you said you would answer.

Heb. 4:10
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

That of course is correct. We are to STOP doing works of the Law and enter into His rest of faith. Does NOT mean it automatically happens because Jesus and Paul and ALL the NT shows we are to strive, labor and run the race. That is ALL based on our effort and God's strength.
Your entire outlook however in one of God does it all and we're just along for the ride. NOT what the NT teaches.
Now how about addressing those scriptures from post #392 and stop all this diversion and deflection?

 

[godrulz]

Paul did not use past tenses, he used aorist tenses, which most translators converted into past tenses.

We can rejoice in knowing our names are written in the book of life because this is how we gain salvation from the wrath to come.

That does not mean we have already attained salvation, because there is always the possibility that our names will be blotted out from the book of life if we turn back before receiving the fulfillment of the promise.

It is possible to turn back, but I Jn. 5:11-13 uses present tenses for eternal life.

When Paul talks to believers, he does use past and present tenses. The assumption is that it is a certainty assuming they will continue to believe.

You have a point, but it does not fully stand up to scrutiny/exegesis.

 

[Nick M]

What argument is simpler than the fact that salvation does not happen before the return of Jesus?

We are to reckon ourselves as seated with him in heavenly places.

 

[Nick M]

Jesus did not explicitly say what you claimed He said.

He said they are to surely die. You are a pathetic pervert. Said another way...

Jesus is not God

 

[Lighthouse]

Jesus did not explicitly say what you claimed He said. Yes, YHWH (who is also Jesus) did speak through Moses, but using your logic, when Jesus said things on earth, it was OT Father or YHWH speaking them?

Jesus is YHWH, but that does not mean that Jesus did not teach new and different things than the OT authors. You are inconsistent in that you will say that the Spirit only spoke NT Church truth through Paul, but not John or Peter? You make a big deal that we don't build an ark like Noah did, so we do not follow non-Pauline teaching, yet you use strained logic to put words in the mouth of Jesus who is bringing progressive revelation (Heb. 1:1-3). We interpret Jesus' words through the grid of the Gospels, NT, and OT, but we don't make your mistake of saying all OT theocratic Israel stuff is Jesus speaking truth for this age.

Jesus was not born when Moses was on earth, so we usually don't attribute all OT sayings to Jesus, but to YHWH (yes, I am trinitarian, but I am not sure what your point is). I am technically correct that Jesus did not say in the Gospels to stone homosexuals. You have an argument from silence and should also explain why Christians don't stone heterosexual sinners today.

William=

It was never a command that the people should just go and do it; it was sanctioned by the governing authorities of the time. And it was never about the sin; it was about the crime. The sin aspect of the crime was dealt with separately from the crime aspect.

So the argument is that we should still do as God desired regarding certain actions that should be, according to Him, regarded as crimes by the governing authorities.

This argument comes from the fact that God never repealed those edicts; they are still sins according to Him, and should be against the law of the land. And the punishment should be death.

So, why do you think we don't do it today?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I don't know that so how is it you do?

By type of fellas you mean a Biblical type...yep.

Thanks for the neg-rep pal!

 

[genuineoriginal]

It is possible to turn back, but I Jn. 5:11-13 uses present tenses for eternal life.

John believes that eternal life is promised to us.

1 John 2:25 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.​

The verse you are talking about is referring to the fulfillment of the promise.

1 John 5:11 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.​

The tense is aorist active indicitive. It is certain to happen, but the time it happens is not shown in the verse. It really says that God has given/is giving/will give us eternal life. It is conditional on us being in the faith according to the rest of the book of I John.

1 John 5:12 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.​

The tense in this verse is present, which shows that John is saying that anyone that has the Son now also has eternal life now and anyone that does not have the Son now does not have eternal life now.

The entire context of 1 John is teaching believers how to identify whether they are in the faith. John tries over and over to tell believers how they can know that they are truly believers and will get eternal life. He also tries over and over to tell believers how they can know when they are no longer in the faith and will not get eternal life.

 

[genuineoriginal]

We are to reckon ourselves as seated with him in heavenly places.

Yes, so long as we continue in the faith.

Acts 14:22 22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.​

 

[StanJ53]

Thanks for the neg-rep pal!

Just reciprocating GM. Did you forget about the law of sowing and reaping?

 

[glorydaz]

Not the issue Glory, even though you try to make it an issue and continually deflect.. The verses I quoted in post #392 are the issue, which you said you would address, so ADDRESS them in the context they were supplied.

Ah, so you get to decide what the issue is. :chuckle:

Good grief. If you think you posted something so great in post #392 then you bring it forward. We are now in the 500's.

But, since you can't even rightly divide the verses you quote...out of whatever version that is, then you can bring forth the ONE thing you think I'm avoiding and I'll address it.

Not what the Bible says, and I gave you the verses. We bear the fruit and we suffer the consequences of NOT bearing the fruit.
Who said we can boast? Paul said we CAN'T. The Bible in total, ALWAYS has the answer.

Romans 3:27
Where then is boasting? It has been excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.

then Paul also says we can boast;
Romans 15:17 In Christ Jesus, then, I have reason to boast of my work for God.

Perfect example of you changing the Word and leaving out the most important part that proves you WRONG. "For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ HATH NOT WROUGHT by me. Who does it? Paul clearly says it's what Christ has "wrought" by him. Paul takes no credit for what Christ does, but you, Stan, demand the credit for yourself. That is ERROR.

The law of faith means we trust in HIM to do His work through us. We don't take credit for His work.

Romans 15:16-18
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

So you see, it's a matter of perspective and attitude of the heart.

It sure seems like it and the issue is NOT who our source is, it's what we do as I posted in #392 which you continue to evade.


NOT what Paul said.
2 Corinthians 1:14
just as also you have understood us partially, that we are your source of pride, as you also are ours, in the day of the Lord Jesus.

I see you use a very odd translation....no wonder you're so confused.

2 Corinthians 1:14
As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Yes, but again, NOT the issue.
Matthew 21:43
Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.”

Bringing forth or bearing does not mean we are the source of anything. We bring forth what Christ has wrought in us.

Matthew 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Seems your kind of thinking is what got the Jews in trouble because they ALSO thought they didn't have to produce good works or good fruit.

No, they thought their good works saved them....the same as you do. They relied on their own ability....just like you do. There is your ERROR just as it was theirs.

That of course is correct. We are to STOP doing works of the Law and enter into His rest of faith. Does NOT mean it automatically happens because Jesus and Paul and ALL the NT shows we are to strive, labor and run the race. That is ALL based on our effort and God's strength.
Your entire outlook however in one of God does it all and we're just along for the ride. NOT what the NT teaches.
Now how about addressing those scriptures from post #392 and stop all this diversion and deflection?

Obviously you have no idea what my "ENTIRE OUTLOOK" is. My entire outlook is that I rest IN HIM and HE DOES HIS WORK THROUGH ME. I realize that is an entirely different concept for you as you see your work is what keeps you saved. It doesn't, for all your righteous works are as filthy rags and will be burned up like the stubble they are.

 

[glorydaz]

She misuses an analogy. Just because physical birth is irreversible does not mean spiritual rebirth is.

I don't know how much clearer it can be.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[glorydaz]

The KJV uses language that shows the difference between speaking to an individual and to a group.

Thou is a person pronoun of the second person singular, which means it is talking to an individual. So is Thee. So, when you see those words used instead of the plural You, you know that Paul is talking to individual believers instead of peoples.

Romans 11:22 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.​

Goodness is towards individual believers if individual believers continue in His goodness. Otherwise individual believers also shall be cut off.

It is very plainly written, and easy to understand.

I'm forever amazed how you people preach against the promises of God.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.



Israel didn't have eternal life. Groups of people are not saved unto eternal life. Therefore you cannot claim Romans 11 is talking about individual salvation. If you want to claim Romans 11 teaches someone can lose their salvation then you shouldn't be trying to teach anything, for you fail miserably. :nono:

 

[StanJ53]

I don't know how much clearer it can be.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

and it is understood that means believing EVERYTHING God says in His word, including staying the course and guarding against apostasy.

 

[glorydaz]

What argument is simpler than the fact that salvation does not happen before the return of Jesus?

Sad for you. I have passed from death unto life. That's the difference between those who have full assurance of their salvation and those who don't. I have peace and rest and you must continue to strive to enter in.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[glorydaz]

and it is understood that means believing EVERYTHING God says in His word, including staying the course and guarding against apostasy.

That certainly seems to be your understanding, but that is not what the Word of God teaches us. You must believe the Word as it's written without adding or changing it to suit your particular understanding. In fact, if you don't believe God is able to perform what He has promised then your faith is not the saving kind and you are not justified by it.


Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

That God is ABLE TO PERFORM....not that we are able to perform.

Romans 4:19-22
And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

 

[StanJ53]

Ah, so you get to decide what the issue is.
Good grief. If you think you posted something so great in post #392 then you bring it forward. We are now in the 500's.
But, since you can't even rightly divide the verses you quote...out of whatever version that is, then you can bring forth the ONE thing you think I'm avoiding and I'll address it.
Perfect example of you changing the Word and leaving out the most important part that proves you WRONG. "For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ HATH NOT WROUGHT by me. Who does it? Paul clearly says it's what Christ has "wrought" by him. Paul takes no credit for what Christ does, but you, Stan, demand the credit for yourself. That is ERROR.
The law of faith means we trust in HIM to do His work through us. We don't take credit for His work.
Romans 15:16-18
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
I see you use a very odd translation....no wonder you're so confused.
2 Corinthians 1:14
As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Bringing forth or bearing does not mean we are the source of anything. We bring forth what Christ has wrought in us.
Matthew 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
No, they thought their good works saved them....the same as you do. They relied on their own ability....just like you do. There is your ERROR just as it was theirs.
Obviously you have no idea what my "ENTIRE OUTLOOK" is. My entire outlook is that I rest IN HIM and HE DOES HIS WORK THROUGH ME. I realize that is an entirely different concept for you as you see your work is what keeps you saved. It doesn't, for all your righteous works are as filthy rags and will be burned up like the stubble they are.

As you refuse to address what you said you would and continue to deflect and divert, I see no reason to continue this discussion, and YES, I get to decide, because I posted it and you responded to it. I KNOW your entire outlook because I've seen it many times on many forums.
You and your ilk have no idea WHY God created us and our world. He doesn't NEED us, we need Him. He doesn't want puppets, He wants proactive believers to use the free will He created us with, and DEMONSTRATE our belief and commitment. He's NOT looking for couch potatoes believers. He's looking for believers who PRACTISE what they preach. Who WALK the WALK.

 

[StanJ53]

That certainly seems to be your understanding, but that is not what the Word of God teaches us. You must believe the Word as it's written without adding or changing it to suit your particular understanding. In fact, if you don't believe God is able to perform what He has promised then your faith is not the saving kind and you are not justified by it.
Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
That God is ABLE TO PERFORM....not that we are able to perform.
Romans 4:19-22
And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

and as usual, you refuse to see or acknowledge what the Bible does say about our personal responsibility.
Heb 3:14
For we have become partners of Christ, if in fact we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end.

You keep looking for reasons to deny your culpability Glory, and you won't find any that contextually justify your position. You fail to see that the ENTIRE body of scripture needs to be used to interpret ANY single verse.

 

[glorydaz]

As you refuse to address what you said you would and continue to deflect and divert, I see no reason to continue this discussion, and YES, I get to decide, because I posted it and you responded to it. I KNOW your entire outlook because I've seen it many times on many forums.
You and your ilk have no idea WHY God created us and our world. He doesn't NEED us, we need Him. He doesn't want puppets, He wants proactive believers to use the free will He created us with, and DEMONSTRATE our belief and commitment. He's NOT looking for couch potatoes believers. He's looking for believers who PRACTISE what they preach. Who WALK the WALK.

I good run is better than a poor stand. :dog:


I know it's easier to accuse me of being a "couch potatoe" than it is to admit you believe you must earn the free gift of salvation, and to believe you must perform in order to keep it.

The difference between us....well the main difference...is that I give Christ all the glory for everything He does through me and you claim credit for YOURSELF.

 

[glorydaz]

and as usual, you refuse to see or acknowledge what the Bible does say about our personal responsibility.
Heb 3:14
For we have become partners of Christ, if in fact we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end.

You keep looking for reasons to deny your culpability Glory, and you won't find any that contextually justify your position. You fail to see that the ENTIRE body of scripture needs to be used to interpret ANY single verse.

Speaking of context and entire body of Scripture, you jerk a verse out of context and then rail on me for not considering all the Word. The subject is unbelief and the failure to enter into the promised land. The day being spoken of is the DAY OF SALVATION. I have been saved and I have entered into rest. It's you that still wanders around in the wilderness afraid of all those giants.

Heb. 3:14-19
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Now, go and read chapter four and maybe you'll see that those who believe DO ENTER into the rest. We rest because we believed unto salvation. Thus we have passed from death unto life. Cross over the river Jordan, and you, too, can enter in. Or, you can stand at the shore and worry about all those giants on the other side.

 

[StanJ53]

I good run is better than a poor stand.


I know it's easier to accuse me of being a "couch potatoe" than it is to admit you believe you must earn the free gift of salvation, and to believe you must perform in order to keep it.

The difference between us....well the main difference...is that I give Christ all the glory for everything He does through me and you claim credit for YOURSELF.

and this demonstrates you have no idea what I have said at all. You either CAN'T read or CAN'T see. Not only do you NEVER comment on the verses I show you that clearly demonstrate our responsibilities, you misrepresent (lie) about what I believe. Sadly I over estimated your ingenuousness.
Here I'll put it in the version you seem to prefer.
Phil 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.