toldailytopic: Did Jesus die for all men?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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Lon
Well-known member
I'll repeat, there is a clear contradiction. As such, how could I possibly think what you are saying when it contradicts itself?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Krsto
Well-known member
There is no contradiction. If you believe there is, explain.
Krsto
Well-known member
Let me break this down. Perhaps a rewording will help.
God makes choices about what he is going to do with us. That is predestination.
He is also omniscient, knowing the end from the beginning. When he knows something is going to happen before it happens that is called foreknowledge.
According to Rom. 8:29, "Those whom he foreknew, he predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son."
What did he foreknow about them? That they would accept the Gospel and be saved.
What was God's choice of action for those people? That they become conformed to the image of his Son. That's the "end product" of the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of those who get saved.
It's not saying they were predestinated to be saved, he is saying those whom he foreknew to be or get saved he would conform them to the image of Christ (as opposed to some other image such as Joe or Buddha or what have you.)
Those whom he foreknew to not accept the Gospel he isn't working to form the image of Christ in them. They are on their own. They don't get the benefit of that predestination.
Is there still a contradiction?
God makes choices about what he is going to do with us. That is predestination.
He is also omniscient, knowing the end from the beginning. When he knows something is going to happen before it happens that is called foreknowledge.
According to Rom. 8:29, "Those whom he foreknew, he predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son."
What did he foreknow about them? That they would accept the Gospel and be saved.
What was God's choice of action for those people? That they become conformed to the image of his Son. That's the "end product" of the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of those who get saved.
It's not saying they were predestinated to be saved, he is saying those whom he foreknew to be or get saved he would conform them to the image of Christ (as opposed to some other image such as Joe or Buddha or what have you.)
Those whom he foreknew to not accept the Gospel he isn't working to form the image of Christ in them. They are on their own. They don't get the benefit of that predestination.
Is there still a contradiction?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
“Predestinate” is the Greek word, “Proorizo,” which is biblically used to reveal objective determinations, decisions, decrees, foreordination, and appointments made by God.
Outline of Biblical Usage
[1) to predetermine, decide beforehand
2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand
Act 4:28
For to do 4160 whatsoever 3745 thy 4675 hand 5495 and 2532 thy 4675 counsel 1012 determined before4309 to be done 1096 .
Rom 8:29
For 3754 whom 3739 he did foreknow 4267 , he4309 0 also 2532 did predestinate4309 [to be] conformed 4832 to the image 1504 of his 846 Son 5207, that 1519 he 846 might be 1511 the firstborn 4416 among 1722 many 4183 brethren 80.
Rom 8:30
Moreover 1161 whom 3739 he did predestinate4309 , them 5128 he 2564 0 also 2532 called 2564 : and 2532 whom 3739 he called 2564 , them 5128 he 1344 0 also 2532 justified 1344 : and 1161 whom 3739 he justified 1344 , them 5128 he 1392 0 also 2532 glorified 1392 .
1Cr 2:7
But 235 we speak 2980 the wisdom 4678 of God 2316 in 1722 a mystery 3466, [even] the hidden 613 [wisdom], which 3739 God 2316 ordained4309 before 4253 the world 165 unto 1519 our 2257 glory 1391:
Eph 1:5
Having predestinated4309 us 2248 unto 1519 the adoption of children 5206 by 1223 Jesus 2424 Christ 5547 to 1519 himself 846, according 2596 to the good pleasure 2107 of his 846 will 2307,
Eph 1:11
In 1722 whom 3739 also 2532 we have obtained an inheritance 2820 , being predestinated4309 according to 2596 the purpose 4286 of him who worketh 1754 all things 3956 after 2596 the counsel 1012 of his own 846 will 2307:
Strong’s Concordance
I have several comments regarding your views:
First, you unfortunately have chosen to use Scripture to contradict Scripture. You have selected one verse out of the bible and attempt to impose your own definition of predestination; claiming God rewards choices and actions of sinful men and then chooses, on that basis, that these persons will conform to the image of Christ. This makes God Almighty dependent upon the willful choices of corrupted sinners.
This flatly contradicts Ephesians 1:5 where predestination is revealed as being the result of the “good pleasure of His will.”
Predestination is the execution of the Creator’s will for all men. God alone pre-determines the fate and destinies of all men, according to His own purposes. Ephesians 1:9-11
Predestination is not the result of the will and actions of His creatures.
( Plus, along the way, you are confusing justification (forgiveness in Christ by faith alone) with sanctification. Which is quite typical of all Arminian and Pelagian views. Which always ends up being theologically contradictory.)
Secondly, conformance to the image of Christ, is the result of God’s will executed before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4), and thus is not the result of the actions of men executed in time. Believers are predestined to conform to the image of Christ because God chose them in Christ before they were created; not because God looked ahead in time and saw them “choosing” Him.
Conforming to the image of Christ is the anointing work of God the Holy Spirit that accords with God the Father’s appointment (“predestination) of souls in God the Son.
For, thirdly, sinners only love God because He first loved them. I John 4:19
Fourthly, the “foreknowledge” of God as biblically used, reveals the everlasting Covenant of Redemption between God and individual souls. “Foreknowledge” is not a definition of the universal knowledge and omniscience of God; rather it is the definition of the naming of specific souls, intimately known and loved by God; chosen and spiritually blessed in Jesus Christ in the heavenlies. Ephesians 1:3
Finally, predestination is defined in Holy Scripture as the mercy and privilege of “adoption.”
God has chosen many sinners to be His own children in name, honor, and heirs to His kingdom. All men are spiritual orphans, due to the fall of Adam, and the Father chooses who will inherit everlasting life in His house.
Adoptees do not and cannot legally work their own adoption. Only the qualified person who desires to adopt, makes the choice to bring a soul into his own family. And adoptions are legally permanent; affecting the final destiny of the adoptee.
God determined before creation, who His adopted children would be . . . according to the pleasure of His own will. According to His intimate and loving foreknowledge of their individual souls.
All those predestined to be adopted into the family of God have the assurance of conforming to His holy righteousness and living in His kingdom and glory for ever and ever. Such is their destiny, and theirs’ alone, due solely to the grace of their Father. Ephesians 1:8, I Thessalonians 5:9
It is a great contradiction of God’s grace to claim that sinners can earn their own salvation by the execution of their own wills and actions. Such thinking makes salvation a mere response and reward from God for choosing well and better than other sinners. The act of “accepting” Christ would only prove to be one’s own display of righteousness, rather than a gift of faith in the righteousness of Jesus Christ, given by the grace of God alone. Ephesians 2:8-10
Nang
Nang
TOL Subscriber
John Calvin's faithful conviction that God is indeed sovereign over all His creation and church, produced his strong theological teachings regarding the Predestination and Election of souls unto salvation. It is belief in the doctrine of Predestination, the acknowledgement of Almighty God as Sovereign, and the understanding that justification comes by faith in Jesus Christ alone, that distinguishes the Reformed believer from all other professing Christians.
Nowadays, any Christian who holds to the view that God in His sovereignty determined which persons will be saved and who will not, is often labelled as a “Calvinist”. “Predestination” and “Calvinism” have become almost synonymous. This is understandable, but inaccurate, for it implies that the doctrine of Predestination came from the mind of John Calvin, instead of from Holy Scripture, and this is not the case.
The doctrine of Predestination permeates the entire Bible. Predestination was taught by the O.T. saints, Jesus Christ, the Apostles, and held forth by the earliest church fathers.
The doctrine derives from God's revelation of Himself in His written Word, and because God is Almighty God, He is without question, also an omnipotent and omniscient God. The Bible teaches us that God knows all things, He created all things, and He providentially controls all things. Such a God would have foreknowledge, create, and control under a divine plan, and not leave anything to chance. And He would reveal Himself as He is, according to His own purposes, own intentions and own good pleasure.
“. . A view which seems much more accordant with Scriptural representations of His perfections, of the relation in which He stands to His creatures, and of the supremacy which He exercises over them. The sovereignty ascribed to God in Scripture, and involved in all worthy conceptions of Him, seems plainly to imply that His purposes, volitions, and acts, must be ascribed ultimately to the essential perfections of His own nature; while it also seems to imply that His purposes and volitions must be, in some sense, the causes or sources of all that takes place in His administration of the affairs of the world; and, if these principles be well founded, they plainly afford clear and certain grounds for conclusions which form the sum and substance of Calvinistic theology; namely, that God, according to the counsel of His own will, hath fore-ordained whatsoever cometh to pass, and hath predetermined the everlasting destiny of all His creatures . . .Whatever God does, in time, in the administration of the government of the world, He purposed or resolved to do from eternity. . . The production that of all that is spiritually good in men; the production of faith and regeneration; are represented in Scripture as the work of God; they are ascribed to His efficacious and determining agency. Faith and regeneration are inseparably connected, according to God's arrangements, in each case, with salvation. If the general principle above stated be true, then it follows, that whenever God produces faith and regeneration, He is doing it in order to effect what He must have resolved from eternity to effect; namely, the everlasting salvation of some men, that is, of all to whom He gives faith and regeneration.”*
IOW's . . .God is not a reactionary. Nor was God dependent upon the actions of men before He decreed and accomplished their salvations. God is a God of purpose and thus we can know that God created all things with a determined goal in mind, working towards an end designed to bring glory to His Son, Jesus Christ.
Nang
*Excerpts from “Historical Theology”, by William Cunningham
Nowadays, any Christian who holds to the view that God in His sovereignty determined which persons will be saved and who will not, is often labelled as a “Calvinist”. “Predestination” and “Calvinism” have become almost synonymous. This is understandable, but inaccurate, for it implies that the doctrine of Predestination came from the mind of John Calvin, instead of from Holy Scripture, and this is not the case.
The doctrine of Predestination permeates the entire Bible. Predestination was taught by the O.T. saints, Jesus Christ, the Apostles, and held forth by the earliest church fathers.
The doctrine derives from God's revelation of Himself in His written Word, and because God is Almighty God, He is without question, also an omnipotent and omniscient God. The Bible teaches us that God knows all things, He created all things, and He providentially controls all things. Such a God would have foreknowledge, create, and control under a divine plan, and not leave anything to chance. And He would reveal Himself as He is, according to His own purposes, own intentions and own good pleasure.
“. . A view which seems much more accordant with Scriptural representations of His perfections, of the relation in which He stands to His creatures, and of the supremacy which He exercises over them. The sovereignty ascribed to God in Scripture, and involved in all worthy conceptions of Him, seems plainly to imply that His purposes, volitions, and acts, must be ascribed ultimately to the essential perfections of His own nature; while it also seems to imply that His purposes and volitions must be, in some sense, the causes or sources of all that takes place in His administration of the affairs of the world; and, if these principles be well founded, they plainly afford clear and certain grounds for conclusions which form the sum and substance of Calvinistic theology; namely, that God, according to the counsel of His own will, hath fore-ordained whatsoever cometh to pass, and hath predetermined the everlasting destiny of all His creatures . . .Whatever God does, in time, in the administration of the government of the world, He purposed or resolved to do from eternity. . . The production that of all that is spiritually good in men; the production of faith and regeneration; are represented in Scripture as the work of God; they are ascribed to His efficacious and determining agency. Faith and regeneration are inseparably connected, according to God's arrangements, in each case, with salvation. If the general principle above stated be true, then it follows, that whenever God produces faith and regeneration, He is doing it in order to effect what He must have resolved from eternity to effect; namely, the everlasting salvation of some men, that is, of all to whom He gives faith and regeneration.”*
IOW's . . .God is not a reactionary. Nor was God dependent upon the actions of men before He decreed and accomplished their salvations. God is a God of purpose and thus we can know that God created all things with a determined goal in mind, working towards an end designed to bring glory to His Son, Jesus Christ.
Nang
*Excerpts from “Historical Theology”, by William Cunningham
Krsto
Well-known member
I have used Strong's definition of predestination then just read Rom. for what it says: those whom God foreknew he predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son. That fact I believe "God rewards choices and actions of sinful men and then chooses, on that basis, that these persons will conform to the image of Christ," as you say, is not based on a definition of proorizo, but based on what this passage says about God's will. That doesn't make "God Almighty dependent upon the willful choices of corrupted sinners," as you assume, it just means he acts according to what man does. That doesn't make him dependent, just responsive. That doesn't contradict Eph. 1:5 because God is still acting according to his good pleasure, which is to reward faith in those who have it.
Yes, of course. His own purpose is to give the gift of eternal life to those who choose faith and death to those who don't (unless they can make it through life without sinning). The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. The gift comes through faith which is a response to hearing what it is we are to have faith in.
Nope. Predestination has to do with sanctification, not salvation. Sanctification is what we are predetermined for once we have excercised our free will and believed the Gospel. Do you see a contradiction in that?
Exactly. That's the whole point of predestination. It was his plan from the beginning. He chose us to be holy and blameless in his sigh. Here, in contrast to the Rom. passage, justification is what he predetermined us to be based on his foreknowledge, unless the state of being holy and blameless only happens after the resurrection when we are changed into spiritual beings, but I think most of us tend to think of that as being our state from the day we get saved. At any rate, he chose us in him, meaning it was through our faith in Christ, and he chose us before the creation of the world to a certain goal once we have excercised our free will to believe in Jesus.
Eph. 1:4 - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
Of course. That was written after the cross.
You got that from Eph. 1:3? :kookoo:
There is nothing in any concept of adoption that prevents the adoptor from giving the adoptee the choice of which family he wants to be in.
If what you are saying is a reflection of Calvin's teaching then I would have to say Calvin twists the scripture even more than the Catholics in regard to salvation.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Can you provide any legal precedent for making the above statement?
Or can you provide any actual examples of court decisions that supposedly allowed and produced an adoption according to an adoptee's choice of its adoptor?
C'mon . . .
Nang
Krsto
Well-known member
How many adults do you know of that get adopted? The analogy breaks down at that point.
Seriously Nang, this is the best you can come up with in response to my post? I'll take that as tacit admission you know you are tenaciously clinging to a doctrine that you see is evading your grasp like sand running through your fingers . . .
Nang
TOL Subscriber
"Adults" do not get adopted. The biblical teaching of spiritual adoption refers to the redeemed "children of God."
The biblical teaching of spiritual adoption of the sons of God is not an analogy.
It is absolute and divine revelation of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Nang
Krsto
Well-known member
Well then, you should be able to demonstrate biblically that a person has no choice in the matter as to which family he ends up with without begging the question (circular reasoning), no?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Hebrews 2:9-15; Isaiah 8:18; John 10:27-29; 15:16
Zeke
Well-known member
Romans 9-11 shows that those who are blinded still have hope even if the various church denominations wage their self righteous tongues other-wise.
Christ died for all, and Gods will is that all come to belief, and "His will is soveriegn over mans wicked heart", which includes everyone born of man. Death isn't a barrier for the love and grace of God!
Grace, Zeke.
Christ died for all, and Gods will is that all come to belief, and "His will is soveriegn over mans wicked heart", which includes everyone born of man. Death isn't a barrier for the love and grace of God!
Grace, Zeke.
Krsto
Well-known member
So men choose by their own free will to choose God so God adopts them and then the Father gives them to his Son to be his brother. I don't see anything in that that precludes them having a choice of which family to be in at the beginning, do you?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
If you do a word search of "choose" throughout the bible, you will find the word and its derivatives are used only in conjunction with the legal purposes and redemptive actions of God . . . not of sinful men.
If the Holy Scriptures themselves preclude the notion of men "choosing God" (see Romans 3:10-11; 19), who can contradict the word of God?
Nang
Krsto
Well-known member
So if I find just one instance of sinful men chosing, using the same Greek word, then your whole theory falls down like a stack of cards, no? And if you continue to insist in your doctrine that would indicate you are more interested in defending your tradition than discerning the truth, correct?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Sinful men "choosing" what?
To raise themselves to new spiritual life and finding justification before God according to their own volitional powers and abilities . . . or "choosing" to lead a holy and sanctified life after divine regeneration?
The Greek word, "haireomai" appears only twice in the N.T. and pertains to sanctification that follows upon justification by faith alone.
I seriously doubt you can post anything that will take down the Reformed Faith like a stack of cards! :crackup:
Nang
Krsto
Well-known member
What if I did? Would you continue to seek truth, recognizing your church missed it on at least one point (there are others), or would you just give up on the whole Christian venture? Are you secure enough in Christ to question your and your church's cherished doctrines and acknowledge your error or would that be just too hard to accept? Would you still be able to love your Reformed brethren after realizing they taught you wrong doctrine? Would you still be able to love yourself knowing you had been misled?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Krsto,
You can attempt to destroy my faith, if that is your heart's desire, but you will have to destroy the Holy Scriptures to do so, for they are what my faith is founded on.
See my motto:
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