toldailytopic: Did Jesus die for all men?

[chrysostom]

*
Yes, the point being that it was Adam's sin [and we were in Adam] that was the cause of our woe, and it was that sin for which atonement was made so how could the atonement not be universal in it's availiability? predestination and the truths concerning it form no part of the gospel message.....that is for disciples to learn about and any way it is predestination to be conformed to Jesus, not unto salvation.

So what are we to do with the two seeds? the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman?

We are to preach the good news.....the Holy Ghost will soon sort out who is who and they [the serpent's seed] will soon make themselves known at the preaching of the gospel by opposing it.

Our WHOLE business is to announce the good news so that belovéd children of God [known to Him though not to us] may be brought out of wretchedness and darkness and sorrow and brought into God's marvellous light.

Let the wicked alone, they are not our business. If we fully understood these things it would put an end to many a hell fire and damnation merchant of misery and doom and gloom.

Not that hell should not be preached and warned against, let the wicked be warned....but deciding who will or will not go there is God's business not ours.

so whether or not you go there is not your business?

 

[Totton Linnet]

so whether or not you go there is not your business?

*
You must know dear Chrys that if you fall into a snake pit you are in very deep trouble, that is because snakes have a certain nature and they will always act according to it.

Sheep have a different nature to goats, wheat is very different to tares, it really is not wise for the farmer not to distinguish between the two........perhaps that's why the churches have sheep and goats penned together.

 

[unknown]

The answer to this question depends on what the word "man" signifies. The Kabbalists tell us that it does not mean any human being, it means a human being who has attained a higher soul. In the Christian vernacular it means one "born of the spirit". So, Christ died for all men but not for all human beings (animals).

 

[chrysostom]

*
You must know dear Chrys that if you fall into a snake pit you are in very deep trouble, that is because snakes have a certain nature and they will always act according to it.

Sheep have a different nature to goats, wheat is very different to tares, it really is not wise for the farmer not to distinguish between the two........perhaps that's why the churches have sheep and goats penned together.

so the bad ones know they are in trouble
and
the good ones know they are saved
but
we can't tell who they are?

 

[warren clark]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for June 9th, 2011 12:52 PM

toldailytopic: Did Jesus die for all men?

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Yeah. Just not for the non-believers. lain:
John 3:16

 

[Nang]

So you believe he had two wills. And you base this on what, exactly? When did his other will, his divine will, ever speak using his human tongue?

You have an odd view of what the "will" is, it seems. The "will" is the heart motivation and inclinations of God and creatures.

The three Persons of the Trinity all are One and motivated the same being only inclined to holiness. Men (fallen) are all motivated and inclined to do evil, and even animals are instinctively motivated to function according to their nature.

So we see Jesus, who was begotten of God and born of a woman, achieving harmony between the divine will and the human will. Jesus Christ volitionally chose, even when humanly tempted as the Son of Man, to obey the will and commands of His Father, in order to fulfill all righteousness.

He did so sinlessly.

The purpose of this hypostatic union of willful human nature with the divine?

Mediatorship.

And the reconciliation of fallen creatures with their Creater.

Whose will be done in heaven and on earth as a result of this reconciliation? I am sure you can answer the question from Holy Scripture . . .

Nang

 

[Lon]

1Pe 2:6 Therefore also it is contained in the Scripture: "Behold, I lay in Zion a chief corner Stone, elect, precious, and he who believes on Him shall never be ashamed."
1Pe 2:7 Therefore to you who believe is the honor. But to those who are disobedient, He is the Stone which the builders rejected; this One came to be the Head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 and a Stone-of-stumbling and a Rock-of-offense to those disobeying, who stumble at the Word, to which they also were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for possession, so that you might speak of the praises of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
1Pe 2:10 you who then were not a people, but now the people of God, those not pitied then, but now pitied.

He came with the dual purpose of causing some to stumble and to give others life. He knew beforehand that this was the case so it can't be argued affectively, that He died for/to save all men.
Even those who reject foreknowledge cannot argue against His intended purpose. You already recognize that He came for both of these purposes from scripture.

 

[Nang]

For Nang/AMR,

Forgive me if this was already addressed in your links. I admit that I did not take the time to read them.



1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.



Was there a time when salvation was not available to "all types of men" (before it was testified in due time)?

No.

There has always been a godly lineage of mankind set apart for redemption according to Godly promises of a Mediator/Savior.

Many of them are listed in Hebrews Chapter 11.

Nang

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

No.

There has always been a godly lineage of mankind set apart for redemption according to Godly promises of a Mediator/Savior.

Many of them are listed in Hebrews Chapter 11.

Nang

What was testified in due time? The statement implies there was a time when it wasn't testified.

 

[Nang]

What was testified in due time? The statement implies there was a time when it wasn't testified.

The incarnation of Jesus Christ manifested and provided in human form, forensic evidence and visible witness, of all the divine promises of a Savior.

 

[Krsto]

He came with the dual purpose of causing some to stumble and to give others life. He knew beforehand that this was the case so it can't be argued affectively, that He died for/to save all men.
Even those who reject foreknowledge cannot argue against His intended purpose. You already recognize that He came for both of these purposes from scripture.

His intended purpose is that those whom he foreknew to accept the Gospel and get saved would be conformed into the image of Christ. That is what he predermined, not that they would be saved or not. He predestined the fruit of their conversion. That's biblical predestination.

 

[Nang]

His intended purpose is that those whom he foreknew to accept the Gospel and get saved would be conformed into the image of Christ. That is what he predermined, not that they would be saved or not. He predestined the fruit of their conversion. That's biblical predestination.

You contradict yourself.

 

[Lon]

You contradict yourself.

▲

 

[Paulos]

1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.​

 

[Lon]

1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
​

Universal salvation or perhaps qualified, like the rest of us?

 

[Nang]

Universal salvation or perhaps qualified, like the rest of us?

▲

 

[Sheila B]

What was testified in due time? The statement implies there was a time when it wasn't testified.

"The testimony to which was borne at the proper time" I Timothy 2:6 might also be "testament" or "covenant" as in the new covenant which came in the fullness of time.

 

[Krsto]

You contradict yourself.

Nope. Not sure how you got that from what I said so please explain what you think I said. You probably got it wrong.

 

[Totton Linnet]

so the bad ones know they are in trouble
and
the good ones know they are saved
but
we can't tell who they are?

*
The way to tell is by preaching the gospel. When the gospel is preached simply God's people gather around to hear it....the enemies of God fight with all the malice and spite in their power to oppose it.

Now some people come opposing [St Paul] and go away believing, others appear to join the happy throng but really are enemies [Simon Magus] So we preach to all men and women and we look to God to sort it all out.

Some people are the nicest people you can wish to meet....until you start talking about Jesus [?] some people go to church every week "Lord did you not preach in our streets?" but their hearts are not very warm towards the gospel. I mean Catholic and Protestant, there are churches that if you were to go in and start talking simply about the things of God they are ready to run you out and throw you off a cliff.

Ask yourself "what if Jesus were here?" what if He interupted the holy ceremony by healing the woman bowed together...probably at the most holy part of the service....would the priest/minister be pleased with the inevitable noise and hubbub? is not a large part of the church like the Jewish church of old?

 

[Lon]

Nope. Not sure how you got that from what I said so please explain what you think I said. You probably got it wrong.

Go back and reread it. Maybe it will come to you. There are 2 inherent problems (contradictory) in your post. They are fairly obvious.