toldailytopic: Did Jesus die for all men?

[Nang]

If it was as arbitrary as all that, then why did Jesus have to die? Why did we need His blood? Couldn't God just forgiven us?

The wages of sin is death.

Christ fulfilled and satisfied the death sentence imposed upon His children, due to their crimes.

God's justice demanded this.

Sinners are only forgiven when their death sentence is paid by Jesus Christ.

Sinners are only justified by faith in Christ's righteous works of atonement, alone.

Sola Fide!

Solus Christus!

Nang

 

[Nick M]

No, Jesus Christ died only for those the Father gave Him to redeem.

Nag

You lying wench. You know the truth, and choose to pervert it becauase you are a sick and twisted demon. Shame on you for claiming Christ, then perverting what he clearly says. Go back to your den, snake.

Romans 5

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

The free gift is for all men, by only many are saved. They reject it.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

You lying wench. You know the truth, and choose to pervert it becauase you are a sick and twisted demon. Shame on you for claiming Christ, then perverting what he clearly says. Go back to your den, snake.

I said the same thing, albeit in more words than Nang. :squint:

You are simply doing your usual baiting hoping to incite Nang. Cheap shots won't distract the discerning reader from thinking deeper, and understanding what "all men" really means, but have at it. Boldfacing or underlining snippets from Scripture is a very poor substitute for proper exegesis of the whole counsel of Holy Writ. I'm just sayin'.

AMR

 

[Nick M]

I said the same thing,albeit in more words than Nang. :squint:

You are simply doing your usual baiting hoping to incite Nang. Cheap shots won't distract the discerning reader from thinking deeper, but have at it.

AMR

You are a pervert too. I didn't read your drivel. Why don't you tell us what Paul really means when he says the gift is to ALL MEN? Mr Religion is a great name for you.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

You are a pervert too. I didn't read your drivel. Why don't you tell us what Paul really means when he says the gift is to ALL MEN? Mr Religion is a great name for you.

Yes, I am but an unprofitable servant, that is true, Nick.

Had you read my "drivel" you would have found your answer to the question posed. But then again, I think you are more interested in being unduly divisive than you are in edifying the body.

We need not agree on all matters, but that should be no warrant for the venomous vitriol you are tossing about. If you want to understand another person's views, you are going to have to dig into them, so that you can interact with them cogently. If everything you disagree with is "drivel" you are embarrassing yourself among more reasoned souls. It is one thing to be a fool for Christ, quite another to be a bare fool.

AMR

 

[Nang]

I didn't read your drivel.

How can you judge AMR's posts as "drivel" when you admit you have not read what he posted?


:dunce:

Nang

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

He dIdn't die for all men if you believe in predestination. If you believe in our God given free will, then absolutely.

Not quite. All believers know predestination is taught clearly in Scripture. They just differ on the objects or the means of the predestination spoken of in Scripture. The word "predestination" can engender many emotional responses, but all believers should recognize the word is used clearly in Scripture, so claiming "we don't believe in predestination" without careful qualification is a sure sign someone is not reading their Bible carefully.

AMR

 

[Son of Jack]

Not quite. All believers know predestination is taught clearly in Scripture. They just differ on the objects or the means of the predestination spoken of in Scripture. The word "predestination" can engender many emotional responses, but all believers should recognize the word is used clearly in Scripture, so claiming "we don't believe in predestination" without careful qualification is a sure sign someone is not reading their Bible carefully.

AMR

Agreed. When I think about and use the word predestination, I mean something quite different than AMR.

 

[Nang]

Agreed. When I think about and use the word predestination, I mean something quite different than AMR.

Since "predestination" has all to do with the final destiny of all men, in what way do you use the word differently than AMR and the bible?

Nang

 

[Son of Jack]

Since "predestination" has all to do with the final destiny of all men, in what way do you use the word differently than AMR and the bible?

Nang

Why do you think I'm going to dialogue with you when you couch the question in that way? "I mean, come on, SoJ, offer up your definition of the term because you are obviously wrong..."

No thanks, Nang.:e4e:

 

[Krsto]

No distinction can ever be made between the will of the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit.

"Father, let this cup of suffering pass." - This shows Jesus' will was not to get crucified, as we would expect. He submitted his will to his Father's, precisely because his will was not the same as His.

 

[Nang]

Why do you think I'm going to dialogue with you when you couch the question in that way? "I mean, come on, SoJ, offer up your definition of the term because you are obviously wrong..."

No thanks, Nang.:e4e:

Huh?

Just giving you the chance to define your understanding of the definition, purpose and meaning of the biblical usage of the word "predestination" apart from how it applies to the destiny of all men.

If you can't, it is not my fault for asking the question.

Nang

 

[kmoney]

If it was as arbitrary as all that, then why did Jesus have to die? Why did we need His blood? Couldn't God just forgiven us?

I believe he could.

 

[Nang]

"Father, let this cup of suffering pass." - This shows Jesus' will was not to get crucified, as we would expect. He submitted his will to his Father's, precisely because his will was not the same as His.

Jesus Christ, submitting His human will, to the divine will of God, is exemplary of what a perfect human being can be; should be; and ought to be; and eventually will be , according to God's grace bestowed upon His chosen. (I John 3:2-3)

Nang

 

[Krsto]

Jesus Christ, submitting His human will, to the divine will of God, is exemplary of what a perfect human being can be; should be; and ought to be; and eventually will be , according to God's grace bestowed upon His chosen. (I John 3:2-3)

Nang

Did Jesus have anything other than a human will?

 

[Krsto]

Not quite. All believers know predestination is taught clearly in Scripture. They just differ on the objects or the means of the predestination spoken of in Scripture. The word "predestination" can engender many emotional responses, but all believers should recognize the word is used clearly in Scripture, so claiming "we don't believe in predestination" without careful qualification is a sure sign someone is not reading their Bible carefully.

AMR

You mentioned we differ on object or means but there is another difference: the goal of the predestination. In the statement by Paul: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren," the point is that those who are saved are predetermined to be like Christ, as opposed to being predetermined to be like Joe, or Buddha, or what have you. Those whom he foreknew that they would be saved he has a plan and goal for them, to be like Christ. That is what he predestinated.

 

[Nang]

Did Jesus have anything other than a human will?

Jesus' human will was subjected to and thereby brought into complete harmony with His divine will that was also part of His being.

Jesus Christ was fully human and fully God.

He exemplified a perfect human being, who lived in human flesh as a Son of Man . . . obediently, volitionally, and perfectly, according to all the Will and Word of God, without sin.

Nang

 

[Krsto]

Jesus' human will was subjected to and thereby brought into complete harmony with His divine will that was also part of His being.

Jesus Christ was fully human and fully God.

He exemplified a perfect human being, who lived in human flesh as a Son of Man . . . obediently, volitionally, and perfectly, according to all the Will and Word of God, without sin.

Nang

So you believe he had two wills. And you base this on what, exactly? When did his other will, his divine will, ever speak using his human tongue?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

For Nang/AMR,

Forgive me if this was already addressed in your links. I admit that I did not take the time to read them.



1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.



Was there a time when salvation was not available to "all types of men" (before it was testified in due time)?

 

[Totton Linnet]

For Nang/AMR,

Forgive me if this was already addressed in your links. I admit that I did not take the time to read them.



1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.



Was there a time when salvation was not available to "all types of men" (before it was testified in due time)?

*
Yes, the point being that it was Adam's sin [and we were in Adam] that was the cause of our woe, and it was that sin for which atonement was made so how could the atonement not be universal in it's availiability? predestination and the truths concerning it form no part of the gospel message.....that is for disciples to learn about and any way it is predestination to be conformed to Jesus, not unto salvation.

So what are we to do with the two seeds? the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman?

We are to preach the good news.....the Holy Ghost will soon sort out who is who and they [the serpent's seed] will soon make themselves known at the preaching of the gospel by opposing it.

Our WHOLE business is to announce the good news so that belovéd children of God [known to Him though not to us] may be brought out of wretchedness and darkness and sorrow and brought into God's marvellous light.

Let the wicked alone, they are not our business. If we fully understood these things it would put an end to many a hell fire and damnation merchant of misery and doom and gloom.

Not that hell should not be preached and warned against, let the wicked be warned....but deciding who will or will not go there is God's business not ours.