toldailytopic: Did God choose an eternity ago who would, and who wouldn't, be saved?

[greatdivide46]

Although God knows who will and who won't be saved, I don't believe He chose anyone to not be saved.

 

[TeeJay]

Yes, God makes choices, and He decided before the foundation of the world who would, and wouldn't be saved.

How could He choose or reject you if you did not yet exist?

For example, God chooses to be merciful to some, and not to others.

Can He be merciful to the unrepentant sinner and unmerciful to the repentant sinner and remain JUST?

However there are things that he can not choose. He can not choose to be holy, He is holy. He does not choose to love, He is love.

Does it take faith to believe in a God who can't do otherwise? Love must be freely given. You can program your computer to say, "I love you."

His love compelled Him to have His only begotten son die for us. The Son chose His own death, that night, in the Garden, to agree with the Father's will, and His love for a lost world.

Jesus willing died for us. Nothing "compelled" Him. Jesus said, "Do you not know that I can ask my Father for twelve legions of angels and He would send them."

It is important to know that God is not technically bound by any law, even His own. Rather He is bound by his own character, and characteristics.

Yikes! Where in the world did you get this? If Jesus Christ had bowed His knee to Satan, would that have been okay. The moral laws are a description of God, just as the physical laws are a description of the universe. God can't lie and remain honest. God can't sin and remain sinless. God can't break His word and remain trustworthy. God can't judge unjustly and remain just.

Thus He does not change.

Was God always a man? That's a big change. Jesus took on the sin of the world. That's a big change. God the Father poured out His wrath on His Son. That's a big change. Jesus Christ (God) sweated, cried, grew weary, felt pain, was tempted--all big changes.

Therefore it is far greater a salvation than we truly understand, when one realizes, that we are not saved, or loved, merely by an immutable characteristic of God. Although some find great solace, in thinking this way.

Did you not mean "mutable"? Immutable means that God can't change His mind. No?

Rather we are saved because He "chose" to act upon the counsel of His own will. To have mercy birthed out of His Love. That is the aspect of Love upon which He had to make a choice, "mercy", and judgment. The judgment was poured out on His son.

But you must realize that if the Father and Son had no choice but to do this, then Jesus' sacrifice has no value.

I find it far more wonderful, and amazing, that God has saved me because he "wanted" to, rather than that He "had" to!

But He did not have to save anyone, "for all have sinned and come short." He did not arbitrarily choose you or me. Rather, He gave us the freedom to choose or reject Him.

God's choice is to save any human with "these" types of characteristics: humble, having a fear of God, poor in spirit, and whosoever calls upon His name! These people He chose in an eternity without time, and outside this earthly space.

The Bible does not say that God created time. "When time will be no more..." is in a hymn book, not in the Bible. There is time in heaven. Before you existed, God did not know you. Why? Because God can't know the unknowable. If you do not exist, it's impossible for God to know you.

If you feel like the prey, in this world's jungle, and called upon His name while under one of this life's attacks, then you are being protected by His power, unto that day of eternal salvation.

"My grace is sufficient for you." Try making a public pronouncement of your faith in China or Iraq and you will be dead by sundown. Now I agree that when we accept Jesus Christ, "we are sealed with the Holy Sprit until the day of redemption..."

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

 

[TeeJay]

Although God knows who will and who won't be saved, I don't believe He chose anyone to not be saved.

How is it possible for God to know you before you exist?

If He can't know you before you exist, then how can He choose or reject you?

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

 

[Lighthouse]

Why everyone on this site who "claims" to be a Christian does not make you respond to what Paul says, is unbelievably sad. They must not care about you in the least, because they do indeed hold your hand on your way to hell.

I quit trying, because he refuses to admit that he doesn't agree with the Bible, no matter how often he spouts off rhetoric that is in direct contradiction of the word of God.

We can post verse after verse and he'll say the Bible doesn't say that.

1 Timothy 2:3-7 (New King James Version)
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

So, yes! God decided way back when who would, and who wouldn't be saved.

He decided everyone would be saved. Then, when He created us, He gave us free will and the power to disagree with that decision and reject it.

Why in the world would He do that?

1 John 4:19 (New King James Version)
19 We love Him because He first loved us.

John 13:34 (New King James Version)
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

Deuteronomy 23:5 (New King James Version)
5 Nevertheless the LORD your God would not listen to Balaam, but the LORD your God turned the curse into a blessing for you, because the LORD your God loves you.

Because you don't take the ones you love against their will.

:think:

Although God knows who will and who won't be saved..,

Scripture?

 

[chrysostom]

Although God knows who will and who won't be saved, I don't believe He chose anyone to not be saved.

then why would He make those who are not going to be saved?

 

[chrysostom]

How is it possible for God to know you before you exist?

If He can't know you before you exist, then how can He choose or reject you?

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

then why doesn't He immediately destroy you once He sees what you are?

 

[TeeJay]

Nope. But if he did - then we might as well do whatever we want without regard to his commands or teachings, since none of it would make a difference as everything is pre-ordained.

CSUGUY,

Very good logic! I agree.

But what you must understand, is that nothing matter to Closed Theists. God can be unjust, He can sin, He can even be illogical JUST BECAUSE HE'S GOD.

Tom from Mabank, TX

 

[TeeJay]

godrulz,

"For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do."

Is that your idea of free will?

Anytime you want to define terms (like... say... free will) and make a cogent argument using scripture, I'll be waiting.

elohiym,

Romans 7 is Paul's, and every Christian's, struggle with our sinful flesh. "For I know that in me (that is in MY FLESH) nothing good dwells..." (Rom. 7:18). Paul supplied the parenthetical statement here. Paul illustrates the effect of the law on the flesh even for believers who put themselves back under the law (Gal. 5:1-4). Paul writes, "how to perform what is good I do not find [that is in my flesh) (Rom. 7:18). I supplied the "in my flesh" as Paul thought it too redundant to add it in each verse. Thus the Christian living in the flesh must admit that:

"Sin is producing death in me... [when we act in the flesh]"

"I am carnal [that is, my flesh is carnal], sold under sin [that is, my flesh has not been redeemed, YET]."

"Evil in present in me... [in my flesh].

"I see another law in my members... [that is in my flesh].

"bringing me into captivity to the law of sin... [my flesh at work]."

O wrethed man that I am [in my flesh]!"

Who will deliver me from this body of death [this flesh of mne]?

Paul answers this question: "I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, WITH THE MIND I MYSELF SERVE THE LAW OF GOD, but with the flesh, the law of sin" (Rom. 7:25).

However, because Paul can either "serve the law of God" [with his mind] or "with the flesh the law of sin" (Rom. 7:25), he must determine at each moment to which he will give control. When he gives control to his flesh, he does not blame his mind, that is, his new identity in Christ, but he blames that old flesh that still clings to him. As Paul wrote:

"But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my embers [a fleshy commandment," Heb. 7:16], warring against the law of my mind..."(Rom 7:17)

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

 

[TeeJay]

No it doesn't.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The carnal mind is not free to choose to obey the law of God. It is always disobedient. Always!

Again, your words contradict what Paul wrote.

elohiym,

"For IF you live according tothe flesh you will die; but IF by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live"(Rom. 8:13).

Notice the "IF." Sounds like an free choice word to me?

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

 

[TeeJay]

then why doesn't He immediately destroy you once He sees what you are?

Answer my questions first. Then I will answer yours.

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

 

[elohiym]

then why would He make those who are not going to be saved?

Your question implies that he made them to not be saved. Consider this scripture:

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Every human being has the same opportunity for salvation.

then why doesn't He immediately destroy you once He sees what you are?

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

 

[elohiym]

"For IF you live according tothe flesh you will die; but IF by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live"(Rom. 8:13).

Notice the "IF." Sounds like an free choice word to me?

I see a choice, that's all. Why do you say it's free? :idunno:

In the English language, free will means the "freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention."

Do you agree with that definition?

 

[Trumpetfolker]

Dear godrulz

Dear godrulz

My manner of study is to take all the scriptures provided bny the holy Ghost on a subject and let them say what they say.

Ac 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before <4309> to be done.

Ro 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he <4309> also did predestinate <4309> to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate <4309>, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained <4309> before the world unto our glory:

Eph 1:5&11 Having predestinated <4309> us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,... In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated <4309> according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

That last one says we have an inheritance in Christ having been predestinated according to the purpose of God's will. Being predestinated is presented in the context of the purpose of God.
That context passes us up to the passage in Romans 8. There we find that God foreknew the ones He predestinated to be conformed to the image of Jesus. God predestinated His Word to become His Son who showed us grace and truth. The purpose for showing us grace and truth was to make men aware of His purpose to take away sacrifice and establish compassion. The declaration of the way of grace in the name of Jesus separates the predestined from the rest because there is a calling that they hear which others can not hear.
The preparation for that was done in the vessels of mercy which were Judah and Israel. And Israel was prepared before her children were scattered to all points on the earth in which they remain to this day hearing the gospel, and being changed from glory to glory.

Ro 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 ¶ As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

[chrysostom]

Answer my questions first. Then I will answer yours.

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

my question answers yours

 

[Nick M]

[Yikes! Where in the world did you get this? If Jesus Christ had bowed His knee to Satan, would that have been okay. The moral laws are a description of God, just as the physical laws are a description of the universe. God can't lie and remain honest. God can't sin and remain sinless. God can't break His word and remain trustworthy. God can't judge unjustly and remain just.


God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

In the world of the autopilot he can choose to be evil. That is the extent of his "Open theism". And the idea that he will unseal a believer.

 

[Nick M]

ignorance is not bliss

Is that why it bothers you so much that there could very well be murderers and adulterers in the Body?

 

[Nick M]

Yes most deffinately so!!! Because there is no such thing as fortuitious guess,and blind chances going on in the PRESENCE,& SIGHT OF THE ETERNAL,OMNIPOTENT,OMNIPRESENT,OMNISCEINT MIND'S EYE PERSPECTIVE!!! The "Arcitect" has the "exact reality" of the"house" "in his mind",before "he build's it";not the other way around!!!!!!Eph.1:3"Blessed"(happy) be the "God" and "Father" of "our"(all the"personal one's"who make up,or,are of and in that[our]of course God already knew"us",and who we were"then" subjectively within His Mind as He Thought about each of us,& Think's upon our objective form"now"from & in the Sight of His Eternal Perspective"then") Lord Jesus Christ,"who"hath blessed"us"with"all"(spiritual) blessings(in)heavenly(places)(in)(Christ)According)as(he)hath(chosen)(us)(in)(him)(before)the(foundation)of the world,that(we)should(be)holy and without blame"before"{in His sight}(him)in"love"(Rom.8:37 Nay,in(all)(these)things(we)(are)(more)than(conquerors)(through)(him)that("loved""us")Eph.1:5 Having"predestinated"(***im so sorry 4 all of Arminian's little god's,as long as that most beautiful of all word's remains in the Bible for true believer's ears to hear,your"disbelieving"doctrine,in GOD,andHIS DOCTRINE,WILL NEVER BE TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!***)"us"(***i praise You Father,myChristJesus & HolySpirit also;who am i,but dust from the earth that You have 4-ever so graciously free given,& filled with Your Life,& Self which is 4 me Salvation Eternal Everlasting***)"unto"(***directed(us)& wonderfully guided(us)too Himself in Christ by His HolySpirit,which was our final destination!!!***)the adoption(of)(children),("according")to the(good)(pleasure)of("his will"),***AND NOT YOUR ARMINIAN OWN***

Cool! Somebody new to rep!

 

[Nick M]

Although God knows who will and who won't be saved, I don't believe He chose anyone to not be saved.

:up:

He desires all to come to the knowledge and be saved.

1 Timothy 2:4

who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[godrulz]

No it doesn't.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The carnal mind is not free to choose to obey the law of God. It is always disobedient. Always!

Again, your words contradict what Paul wrote.

My words may contradict your subjective interpretation of Paul's words, but this does not mean they contradict Paul himself.

 

[godrulz]

Wow. Godrulz will reply to anything, huh? lain:

Not really:rotfl: