toldailytopic: Did God choose an eternity ago who would, and who wouldn't, be saved?

[TeeJay]

I dunno, I just always thought that since God is omniscient that He would know me before I exist. You don't think God knows the future, or at least is a very accurate prognosticator of the future?

GD, I think God is The Great Prognosticator. He can make a prophecy and make it happen if He wants to. What I find amazing is that He can use strong willed men to accomplish His goals--sometimes without them knowing it. For example when the High Priest said of Jesus that "it's better that one man die for Israel..."

God is not omniscient. But rather, He knows everything knowable that HE WANTS TO KNOW. When God created, His creation runs quite well by itself. I, on the other hand, can't build a fence that does not need constant maintenance. Before you and I were conceived in the womb, God could not possible know us, for He can't know us until we exist. Now since He wrote the DNA code, He can look into the womb and know much about the baby being formed. I believe it was King David who wrote that "You knew me when I was not yet formed (paraphrased).

In order for God to have an inkling of what someone is like in the future, He would have micro-manage every sperm to fertilize every egg, and He would also have to micromanage the marriage of every man to every woman. Again, God knows everything KNOWABLE that He wants to know.

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

 

[rainee]

This is the best questioning I've ever read, Ps82!

These are questions that puzzle me:
If God knew each individual that would receive salvation before he created Adam ... then what is the purpose of having a judgment day in any shape or form?

I love this thinking. I think it is important but - and there is always but, you know - isn't this actually related to why He created Adam the way He did, and how He created him?

Ps82, I firmly believe Adam was and is going to be with God.
Now then, fair or not (to the evil one) that means whatever God wanted that He could not get from a robot for companionship was in Adam, or the seeds of it were. (I guess.) Do you agree?

That means Adam fell and on it goes - the whole thing - and still God will have His companions. It is unfair to the evil one, perhaps? Because he did go to Eve, did deceive her, did count on God righteous judgments, I guess? But if he did trust in God's judgments - then he must have known to lie to Eve would seal his own destruction? Would be interested to hear you thoughts on that.

But not only this regarding the evil one, God also has suffered for this gaining of companions, right? I think you agree.

So the whole point of this is: if Adam were the only man that ever lived God still would have gone through this whole thing. And therefore to say "God knew each individual that would receive salvation" is no more astounding than saying He knew Adam would
receive salvation.

I can't get lost in the numbers or pretend to know the numbers of people - I simply know God is not overwhelmed by having more than one. And we know HE had them in mind from the time He had a Lamb slain, isn't that true? Ok then, so it lays as it lays.

The questioning about judgment day is provocative, I think. Because judgment day implies, maybe, that God could not have what He wanted without also having what He did not want as well. I don't know.

Wouldn't everything already be decided and just fall into place in God's plan?

This is a hard thing to answer.
If I am flip about it the truth is: what exactly has happened that God did not already have a plan of salvation for?

But if I am not flip about it then the question becomes evident: Why is a hard way better than some easy way?
I don't know.

But Adam has got to have something in him that is worthwhile that could not exist without his heart and soul also being what it was to take that fruit that his wife offered him.

I had a friend who said instead of Adam taking from her and going down with her, he should have gone to God and offered to die for her.

I didn't know whether to slap my friend silly or laugh my head off while breaking a chair over his head..(this was way before internet we did this face to face back then.)

It was years ago but even now kicking his butt sounds good to me...
But he made me think about the kind of man Adam was.
Whoever Adam really was, he had the heart God wanted. And so did Eve. I hope so much you agree.

When the process of bringing forth all of the combination s ofgenetic humanity was completed, then the fields would be harvested and that would be the sum of the consequences and decisions?

Now, I think it is interesting to ponder this idea.

After God created mankind with the potential to reproduce - God may have been able to look into the genetic pool of possibilities and predetermined the heart of that individual ...

My friend from long ago, dear Ps82, who is the only one I can relate to at times, how can you ask that in that way?
Every genetic possibility is a soul. Let's look at King David. Do you think God knew David before he was born? David thought so.
Once again, wasn't he someone God wanted from before the world was made?

The question for me is not if God can actually keep up with lots of different souls with different personalities, no. You and I are not beyond His knowing just because of the year we are born or the number of people before us. Do you agree?

The question is how far does He let each soul go?
Look at Saul/Paul.

One of the great verses is where it describes Saul as breathing threats and murder, a very descriptive picture for a dragon, mo.
Acts 9:1-3

But was Paul wanted by God? Paul thought so.
And Paul is complex, with his own experiences that add to make him different, just like you and others, do you agree?
Maybe Paul had to grow and become what will be with Him?

Sorry, I have to go for now. Hope I can continue with your post later.
(You have another post I am looking forward to thinking about too!)

It sort of reminds me of what happened between Cain and Abel. God found Abel and his choice of an offering more acceptable than Cain and his ... but God also told Cain this (Gen. 3:7
"If you do well, shalt not you be accepted?"

IOW, Cain still had a choice and a chance.

Very thought provoking, I think you may be right. :think:

 

[Ps82]

Hi rainee,
I believe that the WHY and the HOW that God created Adam is very important. In fact, I think the HOW gives us a few clues as to the WHY.
HE created them:
a.) male/female - in order to reproduce (God was growing a family through mankind)
b.) with a form after the likeness of God's own image - IOW, God wanted his family to resemble HIM.
c.) as ONE individual with one bodily form, while having a dual inner nature (male/female), but God chose to separate them ... for mankind needed a suitable help meet. We know that from that time forward it would be through the woman that other individuals would be brought forth into the world ... and Woman became known as Eve - the mother of ALL mankind.
d.) Later we are given a clue that it would be through Woman/Eve that God would manifest our Lord Jesus into the world from the doorway of the womb.

Not only was God's family to favor the likeness of their Father ... but they would favor the likeness of their savior/judge/and king.

You wrote:

Ps82, I firmly believe Adam was and is going to be with God.
Now then, fair or not (to the evil one) that means whatever God wanted that He could not get from a robot for companionship was in Adam, or the seeds of it were. (I guess.) Do you agree?

I agree that God did not want robots for companionship ... and that there are both men and angels , who will choose to love Him as their LORD.

You wrote:

That means Adam fell and on it goes - the whole thing - and still God will have His companions. It is unfair to the evil one, perhaps? Because he did go to Eve, did deceive her, did count on God righteous judgments, I guess? But if he did trust in God's judgments - then he must have known to lie to Eve would seal his own destruction? Would be interested to hear you thoughts on that.

I figure that Satan had already rebelled against God (along with 1/3 of the angels) even before he tempted woman, but I'm not as sure that he had received his judgment. I really don't know very much about Lucifer's fall ... but I do know this. When he came against mankind that was his demise.

I think I've written in other posts ... that at that event God cursed BOTH mankind and that ole serpent - Satan to partaking of the dust of the ground for the rest of their lives.

For Satan that meant that he would forever after be cursed to partake of the dust of the ground ... BUT FOR ADAM ... God made an exception. What was it? God introduced a FIRST death to mankind... a bodily death. Adam's dust would return to the ground from which it was taken. Through death God would circumcise the invisible nature of an individual from the visible body and then give him a second body. God even told Adam that he was doing these things for his (mankind's) sake. KJV Gen. 3:17 ... cursed is the ground for thy sake.

Adam would be given a second chance - through the process of physical death. Satan did not have a body made of the dust of the ground ... there would be no circumcision for him and his followers from the dust they were cursed to partake of.

In fact - lost angels and lost men will keep their association with the dust of the ground ... and will not have a place in the kingdom of our LORD ... with new glorified bodies. IOW, so goes the cursed dust - so goes all lost souls. This will all be culminated at what is called the SECOND DEATH. Believers will not experience the SECOND DEATH.

You asked my opinion:

God also has suffered for this gaining of companions, right? I think you agree.

Yes, I believe that God's suffering takes on two aspects.
a.) Sure, God tasted rejection, suffering, and death through the human form of the Messiah - the Lord Jesus...
b.) but God also has gone through 'long-suffering' ever since the fall of mankind. He has put up with our sin, , rebellion, suffering, and death.

You wrote:

So the whole point of this is: if Adam were the only man that ever lived God still would have gone through this whole thing. And therefore to say "God knew each individual that would receive salvation" is no more astounding than saying He knew Adam would
receive salvation.

I can't get lost in the numbers or pretend to know the numbers of people - I simply know God is not overwhelmed by having more than one. And we know HE had them in mind from the time He had a Lamb slain, isn't that true? Ok then, so it lays as it lays.

I believe that God's plan was so thorough that Adam was not going to ever be the only man. This is why God made death a process ... instead of an instant result of the original sin. God had planned for mankind to reproduce and become many. Death over time ... allowed for birthing.

You wrote:

The questioning about judgment day is provocative, I think. Because judgment day implies, maybe, that God could not have what He wanted without also having what He did not want as well. I don't know.

That's an insightful point to ponder as well. I think it says somewhere that it is not God's will that any be lost... yet to allow for freewill and willing love - God will endure unpleasant things as well. Sometimes I become very upset with people ... and I have to fight my judgment against them ... It is times like that - that I feel sorry for our LORD ... or he will not have the option to avoid judgment day. But even through this he is merciful to us ... by taking that responsibility upon himself... so nice to know that our LORD is a merciful and fair judge.

You wrote:

This is a hard thing to answer.
If I am flip about it the truth is: what exactly has happened that God did not already have a plan of salvation for?

God had his salvation planned for angels and men before he ever created mankind. Angels and men not attached to the cursed dust would be saved ... those remaining attached will meet the same fate. Most people only consider that mankind became terminally snake bitten in the Garden ... but I see that Satan became terminally bitten in the Garden when he came against mankind.

You wondered:

But if I am not flip about it then the question becomes evident: Why is a hard way better than some easy way?
I don't know.

I've wondered the same thing ... but just like raising children is not ever easy ... and sometimes down right difficult... so it was to be with us as God's children. Even through the difficulties of the process the end result is going to be worth it. As to why the body of Jesus had to endure so much suffering ... well I sort of figure/ponder that perhaps every ounce of his mortal flesh had to be stressed to the point of total brokenness ...so that God could overcome any and all imperfections that may ever afflict the body of mankind. HE was to provide what we needed to receive our future glorified bodies. IOW, he had to provide the WAY.

You wrote:

But Adam has got to have something in him that is worthwhile that could not exist without his heart and soul also being what it was to take that fruit that his wife offered him.

I had a friend who said instead of Adam taking from her and going down with her, he should have gone to God and offered to die for her...
Whoever Adam really was, he had the heart God wanted. And so did Eve. I hope so much you agree.

I don't know why Adam partook of the forbidden knowledge/fruit from his wife... whether he was trying to somehow save her ... or if he simply did not understand why woman had not died instantly so thought he wouldn't either and chose to test it ... or whether he hoped to gain something as Woman had hoped to do. I know more about why Woman partook from the forbidden tree than about his choice. I do know that God had a plan for man and woman ... and that it was a plan full of mercy and a second chance ... and that all he did was for their sake... and for the result of God having the kingdom of children he wanted from the start.

You wrote:

Every genetic possibility is a soul. Let's look at King David. Do you think God knew David before he was born? David thought so.
Once again, wasn't he someone God wanted from before the world was made? ...
The question for me is not if God can actually keep up with lots of different souls with different personalities, no. You and I are not beyond His knowing just because of the year we are born or the number of people before us. Do you agree?

Here is the best explanation I can give as to how I view this process.
God created Adam ... and IN ADAM was all possible genetic codes for all potentially manifested humanity. I believe that God was aware of all those individual from the moment he created mankind. I am not so sure that God had chosen to manipulate the timing of the manifestation of each individual. After all, HE had established the process ... so there was no need to manipulate each birth. Yet, there is proof that, at times, He did step in and divinely bring about the birth of certain individuals. (Some possible examples I see are: Sampson, Samuel, John the Baptist, and the Christ.)

Other individual's were chosen/selected from their conception and development within the womb for HIS purposes. I think that Jacob, the prophet Jeremiah, and probably King David were examples of this.

Regarding your ideas about Paul ... being one who made threats and planned murders... I've always considered Paul to be a man burning with passion for what he thought was right. I usually remember this statement from the LORD: Oh that you were either hot or cold ... but because you are luke-warm I will spew you out of my mouth.

IOW, God can get through to hard hearted people through the consequences resulting from their sins ... and he can redirect passionate people who will fight for truth when they find it ... but those people, who may know about God ... but yet are too comfortable, immovable, and disinterested to even seek the LORD, become worthless to God.

All Paul needed was to know the truth ... then God already knew that HE could use him.

 

[rainee]

Hi Ps82!

Glad to see your response there are some aspects I would like to go further with!
But now let's bring out the rest of your original post.

(Which was such an attention getter for me that I started a thread called "Saving Cain" - have you seen it? Looking back at it now I see I didn't bring out the points I would've wanted to if I hadn't done it in such a hurry. But on onward we go here.)

...

After God created mankind with the potential to reproduce - God may have been able to look into the genetic pool of possibilities and predetermined the heart of that individual ... when his/her time came. Therefore, God would know at conception whether that particular individual would be one of his chosen.

After all, God seemed to know that Jeremiah would be a trustworthy prophet... and chose him as he even was developing within the secrecy of the womb.

Yet - there is another possibility - maybe there are genetic combination s (of humans) that are more 'iffy' due to their weaker character ... yet God does not immediately dismiss them as hopelessly lost... but rather each is given their chance - under the sun.
...

The very first thing I would like to ask is: According to our Christianity weren't all of us "iffy" if it comes down to our weaknesses?
Weren't we all lost?

However, I have to ask were we ever really like Cain who did not care about God's opinion once it was revealed to him?

God spoke to him.
And it meant pretty much nothing to Cain - as far as I can see?

You are very right to say God did want to give Cain a chance, I think.
And not just once either, but once before he killed and then even after, God did not take his life or let anyone else do so.

I hate to say it, Ps82, but Cain may simply have not loved God at all.
Not even a little. Even before anything went wrong.

What do you think?

The next question is regarding Revelations.

How does the prophecy Rev 19:5-6 work
in past tense - unless God knows us beforehand?

For God not to know is to give the opportunity to say prophecy could be wrong, isn't it? Is this not the same as saying, "There may not be 'a great multitude' there may be five"?

 

[Ps82]

Hi rainee,

You asked:

(Which was such an attention getter for me that I started a thread called "Saving Cain" - have you seen it?

No - thanks for calling it to my attention.

You want to discuss this point:

The very first thing I would like to ask is: According to our Christianity weren't all of us "iffy" if it comes down to our weaknesses?
Weren't we all lost?

I believe that all men were/are in the need of a savior. It doesn't matter if we lead a very good life or not. We have all been BORN INTO this terminal predicament - called sin and death.

Yet, I do believe that God knows us totally, at least, by conception. I think that he is able to read our genetic code and know us physically ... and that he, some how, also knows our spiritual character as well.
Yes, we are all iffy ... but God can tells which individuals can be trusted and used for His purposes. I don't even think that Samson was a surprise to God ... for God wanted a man who would stir up trouble between Israel and the nations still remaining in the promised land. God had told Israel to drive out all of the nations in the area ... but they disobeyed... so God wanted to stir them into action to do battle with their enemies - therefore, wild-man Sampson was used by God to do just that. God knew the hot bloodedness of Sampson's character ... and knew that He could use him. (Oh that you were hot or cold ... but because of your luke warmness I will spew you out of my mouth.)

You asked:

However, I have to ask were we ever really like Cain who did not care about God's opinion once it was revealed to him? God spoke to him.
And it meant pretty much nothing to Cain - as far as I can see?

I believe that we are all bent on rejecting God as the LORD over our lives ... it is a spiritual battle. Only with God's help can we overcome our fleshly desires. I do not know if Cain was ever saved, but I do know that the spirit of Cain was passed on ... for a descendant of his made a comment similar to this (I'm not looking up the exact verse):
Cain may have murdered a man, but God protected him ... now, that I have also murdered a man ... God will protect me multiple times more.

You wrote:

You are very right to say God did want to give Cain a chance, I think.
And not just once either, but once before he killed and then even after, God did not take his life or let anyone else do so.

I agree. God is very fair and merciful. He is willing not only to save us from the 'state of sin' into which we are each born ... but then to also forgive us for sins we commit - when we repent - that is.

You wrote:

I hate to say it, Ps82, but Cain may simply have not loved God at all.
Not even a little. Even before anything went wrong. What do you think?

Yes, I believe that people even today have that same attitude in their hearts... but things aren't over until the life leaves our physical bodies. Isn't God good?

You mentioned:

The next question is regarding Revelations.

How does the prophecy Rev 19:5-6 work
in past tense - unless God knows us beforehand?

Well, all this was God's plan in the first place. He must have known the probability of success. He must have known that over 1,000's of years that there would be a great multitude of saved souls. I don't totally understand how God is omni-knowing... but even so I won't restrict him from being omni-knowing. Whether it is an "odds" sort of knowing or an "exact" knowing... ??? He could have looked at the gene pool within Adam and knew how many manifested souls would most likely come to him as their LORD ... or he may have known exactly. I just happen to believe that men have a free will ... and have a say in whether they want Him as LORD or not. I guess I will not fully know until I am with him and all things are finished.

You wrote:

For God not to know is to give the opportunity to say prophecy could be wrong, isn't it? Is this not the same as saying, "There may not be 'a great multitude' there may be five"?

No, I believe that God can intervene within His creation to bring about his will and move history forward to the manifestation of His kingdom ... so prophesy will be fulfilled ... but salvation is an individual process.

 

[rainee]

Good Morning Ps82!
I apologize for being so late getting back to these threads.

I find what you say edifying for the most part and thank you for answering my questions.
Your approach to human genetics is intriguing and forgive me for saying a little strange - but I am not knocking it!

The fact is I don't see any reason to go further with these lines of thought, finding them well answered, and would like now to move on to your other, latter post.

The section about Satan I guess should be replied to on another thread you have so I will try to do that. And I really like what you said abut Paul and passion and think you may be on spot with that.

But I absolutely love what you said below and thought it a great avenue to explore:

I don't know why Adam partook of the forbidden knowledge/fruit from his wife... whether he was trying to somehow save her ... or if he simply did not understand why woman had not died instantly so thought he wouldn't either and chose to test it ... or whether he hoped to gain something as Woman had hoped to do. I know more about why Woman partook from the forbidden tree than about his choice.

Maybe it belongs on a thread of its own I don't know, but I would like to hear ideas on why Eve took the fruit. I would also like to hear others say why they think Adam may have taken from his wife?