toldailytopic: Did God choose an eternity ago who would, and who wouldn't, be saved?

[godrulz]

I have no books, but God does, and your name is not in it.

Which library did you see it in? I was at the one in New York in the fall and did not see it there.

God's Word trumps your nerd: Jn. 1:12; Jn. 3:16; Rom. 10:9-10; Eph. 2:8-10; I Jn. 5:11-13. My assurance comes in the name of Jesus, by the Spirit, according to the Word (no mention of your pet doctrines in these verses).

 

[Nick M]

When did you convert to Open Theism?

You are so dense sometimes. When have you ever seen him state people are arbitrarily chosen to salvation or damnation, and can not choose to trust God. He believes the gospel as is, and the gospel requires to stand before the tree of knowledge of good and evil or instead choose the tree of life.

 

[elohiym]

As humans, do we have the capicity to thwart God's will?

He is the potter; man is the clay.

 

[Nang]

As humans, do we have the capicity to thwart God's will?

Absolutely, NOT!

If we did have such powers, we would be our own "gods."

The human will was designed as finite and gifted to mere men, created in the image of God, but according to all the law of God, it MUST always be kept subject to and submitted to the sovereign and higher will of the Creator.

Even the animal world was gifted with willfulness. Have you ever seen an intelligent, willful, and trainable elephant successfully thwart the will of God?

No, elephants are never more than elephants, no matter how willfully they behave. Their "wills" are restricted to specious parameters.

Creatures cannot supersede their Maker.

(Of course, the devil, told man and still tells men, otherwise . . .)

Nang

 

[Nick M]

God is not moral.

The only other choice here is immoral. When speaking of right and wrong. Eating a banana is of course amoral, and we don't need to go with that.

How is he not moral?

 

[elohiym]

You believe that God chose, before the foundation of the world, who would go to hell and who would be saved. Right?

No.

God chose all in Christ would be saved, and offered all men salvation in Him through faith.

 

[Nick M]

Which library did you see it in? I was at the one in New York in the fall and did not see it there.

God's Word trumps your nerd: Jn. 1:12; Jn. 3:16; Rom. 10:9-10; Eph. 2:8-10; I Jn. 5:11-13. My assurance comes in the name of Jesus, by the Spirit, according to the Word (no mention of your pet doctrines in these verses).

I believe it in context, not as a proof text for your views. Justification is about our initial coming to Christ when we are declared righteous (legal term) and our past sins are dealt with. At that point of conversion, there are no future sins yet. Reconciliation deals with our past sins.

Whatever...:rain:

 

[Oh no... it's Sozo]

The only other choice here is immoral. When speaking of right and wrong. Eating a banana is of course amoral, and we don't need to go with that.

How is he not moral?

Because morality is determined by law. God is Spirit, and not subject to law. God is righteous, not moral. God made the law for men of flesh. Those who are unrighteous/sinners. It is not for the righteous. Morality/immorality has nothing to do with God or His economy.

 

[elohiym]

God alone regenerates and saves.

That's right! but you don't really believe it because you say...

We alone believe or reject with our will/mind in response to His non-causative influence.

Wrong! He raises us to life when we are dead in our sins. He gives us faith when we believe it.

You are a will worshiper.

The Spirit alone causes regeneration (Godward), but the manward condition is faith, something we do (God does not believe for us...

Wrong! Faith is not a condition of salvation. There are no conditions on salvation. Period.

(God does not believe for us...

And if He told you He did, you wouldn't believe Him. Right?

 

[thoridorn]

He is the potter; man is the clay.

Expand on why you are telling us this and what you mean by it.

 

[godrulz]

You are so dense sometimes. When have you ever seen him state people are arbitrarily chosen to salvation or damnation, and can not choose to trust God. He believes the gospel as is, and the gospel requires to stand before the tree of knowledge of good and evil or instead choose the tree of life.

This is also Arminianism, not Calvinism. I thought he believes exhaustive foreknowledge/simple foreknowledge, not the limited foreknowledge of Open Theism. Perhaps you guys misunderstand what the view is. I thought TOL Open Theists were nudging him in the direction and that he stated he was not committed (he definitely does not like Calv. vs Arm. labels, even though his views are more Arminian).

I would be surprised if I was wrong all these years. He does not usually defend Open Theism on the threads, that I recall. He does not oppose it strongly either, which I expected he would since I believe it and it is considered more heretical than most of my views.

I think he probably would freak at Sanders, Pinnock, Boyd, etc., so until I have more proof, I will not bite.

Do I take it that you are not Open Theist or that you really don't care or understand it?

I think he also tends to quietly adopt things he once opposed, comes back under a new name, then pretends he always has held a view. Wait and see with MAD.

 

[elohiym]

Expand on why you are telling us this and what you mean by it.

Why I am telling drbrumley that is because he asked me a question about man's ability, or lack of, to thwart God's will. See his post and question here.

What I mean by it is this: man can no more thwart God's will than a lump of clay could thwart a potter's will.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

[godrulz]

That's right! but you don't really believe it because you say...



Wrong! He raises us to life when we are dead in our sins. He gives us faith when we believe it.

You are a will worshiper.



Wrong! Faith is not a condition of salvation. There are no conditions on salvation. Period.



And if He told you He did, you wouldn't believe Him. Right?

So, you are a hyper-Calvinist or universalist? What is your explanation as to why some do not believe and are damned in hell?

I take it you would say regeneration precedes faith (Calvinism)?

Why does God not arbitrarily regenerate everyone? Why are people responsible for rejecting the gospel if there is no choice, but we are in a robotic Matrix? Where is the love, relationship, freedom, responsibility in your view?

Evil, sin, Satan, and hell are proof that God's will can be thwarted/resisted (Lk. 7:30; Matthew 23:37; I Thess 4:1-10 is immorality God's will? does immorality exist?).

 

[thoridorn]

Why I am telling drbrumley that is because he asked me a question about man's ability, or lack of, to thwart God's will. See his post and question here.

What I mean by it is this: man can no more thwart God's will than a lump of clay could thwart a potter's will.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Ok, so how does that verse show man cannot thwart God's will.

1 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD : 2 "Go down to the potter's house, and there I will give you my message." 3 So I went down to the potter's house, and I saw him working at the wheel. 4 But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.
Jeremiah 18:1-4

Paul wrote the book of Romans. Paul was a pharisee. He knew the old testament. In Romans 9 it tells us that God hardened Pharaohs heart.

17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Romans 9:17-18

God has the power to do what he wants with people, but he will not mess with your free will. In the verse from Jeremiah we see that the potters pot was already marred and so the potter formed it into another pot.
Paul was referring to this verse in Jeremiah when writing Romans 9 and by looking at that we can realize that Pharaoh used free will to turn away from God, and when God saw that Pharaoh was already marred he was able to use Pharaoh for the good of Israel by hardening his heart with the plagues. In this same way, we can thwart God's will, and when we do God can still find a way to use us. Your use of Romans 9:21 does not prove anything. It simply promotes the opposite view

 

[elohiym]

So, you are a hyper-Calvinist or universalist?

Nope.

What is your explanation as to why some do not believe and are damned in hell?

First, I'm an annihilationist. Mal 4:3. So my answer will be why some do not believe and are annihilated.

The reason why some do not believe is because they love darkness instead of light.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

I take it you would say regeneration precedes faith (Calvinism)?

Nope. Faith and regeneration are simultaneous.

Salvation is an event, not a process.

Why does God not arbitrarily regenerate everyone?

He does! Everyone that believes He does is arbitrarily regenerated.

Why are people responsible for rejecting the gospel if there is no choice, but we are in a robotic Matrix?

Who said there is no choice? :idunno:

There are no "free" choices.

Where is the love, relationship, freedom, responsibility in your view?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[elohiym]

God has the power to do what he wants with people, but he will not mess with your free will.

Nonsense!

Look, if you want to discuss free will, start with a definition we can agree on. You need to explain what your choices are "free" from. Good luck.

 

[godrulz]

Nope.



First, I'm an annihilationist. Mal 4:3. So my answer will be why some do not believe and are annihilated.

The reason why some do not believe is because they love darkness instead of light.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.




Nope. Faith and regeneration are simultaneous.

Salvation is an event, not a process.



He does! Everyone that believes He does is arbitrarily regenerated.



Who said there is no choice? :idunno:

There are no "free" choices.



John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Some freely believe when the Spirit influences them, while others freely reject the light because they love darkness. Funny how we use the same verses, but come to different conclusions (paradigm problem).

Acts 17:32-24 Some believed, some mocked, some procrastinated. These are all choices of self-determining agents. None are coerced to believe nor remain in unbelief. The gospel is the power of God for those who believe (they are saved). Those who actively suppress truth are without excuse and remain condemned (Rom. 1).

Annihilationism is a JW/SDA heresy (and you nit pick about my free will views?)

http://www.gotquestions.org/annihilationism.html (Mal. 4 does not support your view; weak proof text not commonly used)

 

[godrulz]

Nonsense!

Look, if you want to discuss free will, start with a definition we can agree on. You need to explain what your choices are "free" from. Good luck.

Do we have self-determination or not? Are we the cause of our moral and mundane choices, or are we mere sock puppets? Are contingent choices indeterminate/possible, or is everything an illusion? Free will is assumed on every page of Scripture.

 

[elohiym]

Some freely believe when the Spirit influences them, while others freely reject the light because they love darkness.

Unless you tell me what YOU mean exactly by "freely," your statement is meaningless to me. You need to explain what your choice is free from. What?! :idunno:

None are coerced to believe nor remain in unbelief.

What do you mean "coerced?" :idunno:

Here's an example of God coercing men, if we are using the English language definition of coerced:

Luke 13:5 ...except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

(Only you believe "perish" really means have eternal life in a fictitious place called Hell where they are tortured for eternity by a "loving" God.) :squint:

Annihilationism is a JW/SDA heresy (and you nit pick about my free will views?)

The Bible only supports annihilationism. Study your Bible!

I don't abandon truths because cults teach them, too.

You're a wolf who claims Jesus is God, but I believe He's God in spite of the fact that a wolf claims to believe the same thing.

 

[elohiym]

Do we have self-determination or not? Are we the cause of our moral and mundane choices, or are we mere sock puppets? Are contingent choices indeterminate/possible, or is everything an illusion? Free will is assumed on every page of Scripture.

"FREE" from what?

So far, you've offered free from coercion. That was a flop.

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