toldailytopic: Bomb in Oslo Norway. What should authorities do to keep the public saf

[John Mortimer]

From Associated Press:

"....the suspect posted on websites with Christian fundamentalist tendencies."


http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-07-22-22-06-19

 

[Selaphiel]

This is extremely tragic. At least 84 confirmed killed at the shooting at Utøya now.

I don't think you can attribute this lunacy to religion, I do not think you can do that with terror in general. This seems to be political, he is an opponent of multiculturalism and he is an extreme right wing nationalist.

 

[John Mortimer]

This is extremely tragic. At least 84 confirmed killed at the shooting at Utøya now.

It's hell on Earth.

I don't think you can attribute this lunacy to religion, I do not think you can do that with terror in general. This seems to be political, he is an opponent of multiculturalism and he is an extreme right wing nationalist.

The individual himself is responsible for his own mind.

To scapegoat either religion or politics would be to do the very thing he appears to be doing... he evidently thinks the world should be rid of Muslims and democratic socialists.

I'm quite optimistic about Norway and her people... I think most of them will recognize that love is more powerful than guns or bombs.

 

[alwight]

I don't think you can attribute this lunacy to religion, I do not think you can do that with terror in general. This seems to be political, he is an opponent of multiculturalism and he is an extreme right wing nationalist.

I think you can, or at least a metaphysical belief, when individuals have ideals beyond the natural and physical that don't require grounding by our physical limitations, but instead assume higher imaginary realms, then absolutely nothing here on Earth need get in their way.

This appears to be something perpetrated by a right wing nutter who thinks that left wing views are an offence to whatever his lofty ideals are, which are obviously not rooted here on Earth.

According to the BBC, the Oslo police confirm that Anders Behring Breivik was a user of Christian fundamentalist websites, for all we know he is a TOL member. lain:

 

[Selaphiel]

I think you can, or at least a metaphysical belief, when individuals have ideals beyond the natural and physical that don't require grounding by our physical limitations, but instead assume higher imaginary realms, then absolutely nothing here on Earth need get in their way.

This appears to be something perpetrated by a right wing nutter who thinks that left wing views are an offence to whatever his lofty ideals are, which are obviously not rooted here on Earth.

According to the BBC, the Oslo police confirm that Anders Behring Breivik was a user of Christian fundamentalist websites, for all we know he is a TOL member. lain:

From what I have seen here, he was a participator on several websites. None of them were Christian websites, but rather right wing political forums. Not all of them extreme right wing, but they were all far right. So where BBC got the idea that he participated on a Christian fundamentalist forum is beyond me, not heard that here at all.
The fact that he is listed as a Christian on facebook is barely being mentioned.
Besides, we do not know if this guy was motivated by some belief that assumed any "higher realm". The guy surrendered to the police, this was not a suicide attack.
I have read the posts that he has written (the ones mentioned by the news media here) He does not even mention Christianity or religion at all in any of his posts except his opposition to cultural Islam, but rather political idols like Geert Wilders.

My point was that terror is not in accord with any of the world religions. Sure, you can twist and pervert religions and use them as a political tool, but then I would claim that the determining factors are the underlying political views and sometimes severe underlying political and social situations. Like attributing Middle eastern terrorism to Islam as a religion is overly simplistic and misses the point.
Of course, you can define religion as any form of belief, but I was primarily referring to the world religions.

 

[John Mortimer]

I think you can, or at least a metaphysical belief, when individuals have ideals beyond the natural and physical that don't require grounding by our physical limitations, but instead assume higher imaginary realms, then absolutely nothing here on Earth need get in their way.

:sigh:
Scapegoating certain worldviews is only going to perpetuate the kind of consciousness behind these horrific events.

This appears to be something perpetrated by a right wing nutter who thinks that left wing views are an offence to whatever his lofty ideals are, which are obviously not rooted here on Earth.

Oh, for goodness' sake... I could go on about the atheist Communist regimes that committed atrocious acts, whose ideals were most definitely "rooted here on earth". But where does this get us?

According to the BBC, the Oslo police confirm that Anders Behring Breivik was a user of Christian fundamentalist websites, for all we know he is a TOL member. lain:

I know - and I won't pretend it doesn't cause me to review my perception of this place & whether I actually want to continue here.

Nonetheless - we have got to stop looking for the path of least resistance when it comes to trying to understand why such things happen.

 

[Selaphiel]

Oh, for goodness' sake... I could go on about the atheist Communist regimes that committed atrocious acts, whose ideals were most definitely "rooted here on earth". But where does this get us?

This is also true. You do not need any idea of a higher realm to commit atrocious acts. Communist atrocities is a prime example of the worst human crimes ever being committed to justify a purely political means, supported by a perverted form of collectivism.

 

[alwight]

From what I have seen here, he was a participator on several websites. None of them were Christian websites, but rather right wing political forums. Not all of them extreme right wing, but they were all far right. So where BBC got the idea that he participated on a Christian fundamentalist forum is beyond me, not heard that here at all.

Nevertheless the BBC have now shown an Oslo Police spokesperson confirming his use of Christian fundamentalist websites, I have no idea if that includes forums. His objections to Muslim immigration seem to have been expressed.

The fact that he is listed as a Christian on facebook is barely being mentioned.
Besides, we do not know if this guy was motivated by some belief that assumed any "higher realm". The guy surrendered to the police, this was not a suicide attack.

Someone not expecting there is a higher realm, only this one, is hardly likely to be so motivated in my view.

I have read the posts that he has written (the ones mentioned by the news media here) He does not even mention Christianity or religion at all in any of his posts except his opposition to cultural Islam, but rather political idols like Geert Wilders.

A nutter with lofty notions, cold premeditated murder of the worst kind.

My point was that terror is not in accord with any of the world religions. Sure, you can twist and pervert religions and use them as a political tool, but then I would claim that the determining factors are the underlying political views and sometimes severe underlying political and social situations. Like attributing Middle eastern terrorism to Islam as a religion is overly simplistic and misses the point.
Of course, you can define religion as any form of belief, but I was primarily referring to the world religions.

OK but imo nobody who has more earthly values and thinks that this is our one and only life would ever see such awful killing as serving any purpose at all.

 

[Frank Ernest]

Seems like the arrested man is a right wing extremist and a nationalist, that is based on the latest information I have seen from the news media here.

Don't forget "fundamentalist Christian." Saw that in one of the early feeds from Norway.

 

[bybee]

Don't forget "fundamentalist Christian." Saw that in one of the early feeds from Norway.

Which could be a very clever coverup for something else?

 

[Frank Ernest]

This is also true. You do not need any idea of a higher realm to commit atrocious acts. Communist atrocities is a prime example of the worst human crimes ever being committed to justify a purely political means, supported by a perverted form of collectivism.

Actually, one does. It may be a particular political party leader, charismatic leader, religious leader, brutal dictator, supposedly benign ruler, etc. All such movement adherents believe in some "higher power" that judges them righteous and the non-adherents to be apostates, infidels, etc. It becomes ok to do whatever to the non-adherents in the name of this "higher power."

If one tries to reduce such movements to a purely misguided political endeavor with no particular singular guidance, one misses the mark and could be in deep trouble because of it. That is, one tends to minimize and downplay the believing resolve required. It also results in a soft-core approach to dealing with it.

 

[Frank Ernest]

Which could be a very clever coverup for something else?

Not very clever if a coverup. I believe those reports are the initial knee-jerk politically-correct responses to something this horrendous. (Q.v., Timothy McVeigh.)

 

[Selaphiel]

OK but imo nobody who has more earthly values and thinks that this is our one and only life would ever see such awful killing as serving any purpose at all.

I will have to disagree with that. And I think 20th century history shows that the people with a total lack in any form of afterlife or higher realm can do the most atrocious deeds. The massacres in 20th century Europe was done by people who though they served their country and their people, people who were absolute realists. The reason that people like that are willing to die is that they do not define themselves through their own individual self, but through the collective they seek to serve, they live through the continued existence of the collective.

Someone not expecting there is a higher realm, only this one, is hardly likely to be so motivated in my view.

Then you view it from the point of view of individualism. People with "earthly values" that did atrocious acts were not necessarily individualists, but their sense of being came through identification with the collective rather than through identification with their individual self. The state of their self is identified with the state of the collective. That is why an extreme communist, who personally was a complete non-believer in any higher form of existence, could give his life for the cause. His self had become identified with this cause.

Actually, one does. It may be a particular political party leader, charismatic leader, religious leader, brutal dictator, supposedly benign ruler, etc. All such movement adherents believe in some "higher power" that judges them righteous and the non-adherents to be apostates, infidels, etc. It becomes ok to do whatever to the non-adherents in the name of this "higher power."

If one tries to reduce such movements to a purely misguided political endeavor with no particular singular guidance, one misses the mark and could be in deep trouble because of it. That is, one tends to minimize and downplay the believing resolve required. It also results in a soft-core approach to dealing with it.

See above. Their higher power is not a metaphysical higher power per se, but rather the collective they think they serve. and i don't really think that politics excludes belief, politics is highly motivated by ideology.
My point is that the higher power they identify with is not a metaphysical/religious higher power per se, but a form of extreme collectivism and the idolization of this.

Paul Tillich actually has a very good analysis of the mentality of the Nazis and the Stalinists in his famous book "The Courage to Be" where he among other things examines this balance between being as individual and being as collectivism.

 

[kmoney]

So sad.

 

[kmoney]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for July 22nd, 2011 09:41 AM

toldailytopic: Bomb in Oslo Norway. What should authorities do to keep the public safe from terrorist attacks?

I don't think the incident in Norway could have been prevented.

It's important not to over-react with security. This incident will get a lot of press and attention which will make it look like this is a major threat, when in reality further attacks will be rare at most even with no changes. While it is always important to defend the public the risk to people of terror attacks in Norway is far lower than almost all other threats. As such I hope Norway doesn't throw away what makes them so great and what makes them a target, the openness of their society, by instituting draconian security measures out of panic.

:up:

 

[Granite]

Don't forget "fundamentalist Christian." Saw that in one of the early feeds from Norway.

I read that as well. Apparently he was angered by his multi-cultural society.

Let the spin begin.

 

[alwight]

I will have to disagree with that. And I think 20th century history shows that the people with a total lack in any form of afterlife or higher realm can do the most atrocious deeds. The massacres in 20th century Europe was done by people who though they served their country and their people, people who were absolute realists. The reason that people like that are willing to die is that they do not define themselves through their own individual self, but through the collective they seek to serve, they live through the continued existence of the collective.

More atheistic despots in the past at least, don't simply go out in a moment of idealistic zeal imo, they are in it for selfish personal reasons and the long term while on their own mission for themselves perhaps. This guy however has, in his own mind, higher motives than himself because he surely won't get any more from this life.

 

[Traditio]

We'll destroy you, your family, your children, your aunts, uncles, every blood relation to you.

1. "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children for the fathers, but every one shall die for his own sin" (Deuteronomy 24:16).

2. "You have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thy enemy. [44] But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: [45] That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust.

[46] For if you love them that love you, what reward shall you have? do not even the publicans this? [47] And if you salute your brethren only, what do you more? do not also the heathens this? [48] Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matthew 5:43-48).

 

[Uberpod1]

Perhaps we can more broadly profile at the airport now to more closely scrutinize all religious persons - not just the Islamic looking. Why would anyone mind being singled out in the name of safety? [/sarcasm]

 

[MrRadish]

This is extremely tragic. At least 84 confirmed killed at the shooting at Utøya now.

I don't think you can attribute this lunacy to religion, I do not think you can do that with terror in general. This seems to be political, he is an opponent of multiculturalism and he is an extreme right wing nationalist.

As far as I can see, terrorism is almost always about politics when you get down to it, even if the terrorists themselves think it's about religion. Very frequently it seems to spring from an odd, tribalistic sort of mentality. There are plenty of examples - extremist Islamists using Islam as an excuse to attack the encroachment of Western culture into the Arab world, the IRA using the Catholic/Protestant divide as a motivation to fight for Irish territory, and so forth. This man's immediate anger seems fuelled by his fundamentalist Christianity, but his actual problem appears to be that he feels threatened by multiculturalism.

I think this is a good lesson to those that argue that Islam is intrinsically more inclined to inspire terrorist acts, though. Faith of any sort tends to fuel actions, good and bad, but rarely lies at their root.