toldailytopic: Are some people born predestined to go to hell?

[rainee]

If you are a man - and you are against Calvinism -
and you are not Kmo who cannot even say what He thinks Messiah means on his own thread -
but any other man - please define
predestination and say why you think Paul uses this word when he does and why he gets so rough in Romans when he is talking about the difference between the Potter and the clay, please.

 

[sky.]

I think that the Calvinists I have come into contact with disregard the responsibility that people have when they hear the Gospel to accept it. The Bible teaches that we are to "respond" to the Gospel.

1 Timothy 2:6

 

[Arthur Brain]

No, no AMR and I are not the only christians on TOL or the world who believe in eternal punishment nor is Calvin the father of the doctrine. You are changing the debate into a discussion about Universalism, which is rejected by 98 per cent of the church on the basis that it is a direct contradiction to Jesus Christ.

THAT'S what I understand

Where do you get that statistic from? It's my understanding that it was one of the prevailing "doctrines" of the early church....

 

[Totton Linnet]

Where do you get that statistic from? It's my understanding that it was one of the prevailing "doctrines" of the early church....

You got that idea from the other 2 per cent...vocal aren't they?

The way to check what the early church believed and taught is to read the apostles.

 

[rainee]

Wouldn't predestination negate freewill?

Rusha,
Hi.
You want to talk about free will?

Please let me say what it is to me, ok?

To me free will is what you do not have in believing Jesus is the living Son of God and Savior.
That means I can't harangue you, beat you, nor drowned you into believing.

It also means that God may very well be working on you in ways I will never be able to see and one day you will simply appear before me a believer.

That is your free will in my understanding.
I have loved ones. I have to give them the best testimony I can
as a human Christian - and I do. And I pray for them that God would give them light where there is darkness and life where there is death. And I believe He is doing that! But as of right now it really is in God's hands... I can't force them to do anything.

Now what is your free will to you?
To believe in God?
You can't.

Not one can unless God does something to their heart, I believe.

That is Calvinism as far as I know.

It doesn't mean parents shouldn't raise their children to believe in God, or that believing spouses shouldnt try to be the right loving witness to their unbelieving mates - but it does mean ultimately - it is in God's hands.

 

[Rusha]

Rusha,
Hi.
You want to talk about free will?

Please let me say what it is to me, ok?

To me free will is what you do not have in believing Jesus is the living Son of God and Savior.
That means I can't harangue you, beat you, nor drowned you into believing.

It also means that God may very well be working on you in ways I will never be able to see and one day you will simply appear before me a believer.

That is your free will in my understanding.
I have loved ones. I have to give them the best testimony I can
as a human Christian - and I do. And I pray for them that God would give them light where there is darkness and life where there is death. And I believe He is doing that! But as of right now it really is in God's hands... I can't force them to do anything.

Now what is your free will to you?
To believe in God?
You can't.

Not one can unless God does something to their heart, I believe.

That is Calvinism as far as I know.

It doesn't mean parents shouldn't raise their children to believe in God, or that believing spouses should try to be the right loving witness to their unbelieving mates - but it does mean ultimately - it is in God's hands.

Hello Rainee,

The reason I asked the question I did has more to do with what my church as well as my high school taught when I was a teenager.

The way it was explained to me is that predestination means that God *literally* predestines who will and won't be saved.

Now, I am not claiming that this is correct, however, if it were, IMO, predestination would void freewill.

Oh FTR, the church I attended up until the eighth grade was Freewill Baptist Church.

 

[drbrumley]

Had to check this thread out to see why it was reported.

 

[rainee]

Hello Rainee,

The reason I asked the question I did has more to do with what my church as well as my high school taught when I was a teenager.

The way it was explained to me is that predestination means that God *literally* predestines who will and won't be saved.

Now, I am not claiming that this is correct, however, if it were, IMO, predestination would void freewill.

Oh FTR, the church I attended up until the eighth grade was Freewill Baptist Church.

Thank you for the good response.
I'm glad you can remember the eighth grade! I barely can.
Here is the deal - Calvinism was an answer to something years ago that very few even think about today - and truthfully most Calvinists I know are aware of the dated-ness of it.
Some of the "issues" are not the same confusing hot issues as before.
Instead of me saying anything about Freewill Baptists may I say something about Sozo/Ghost?
Ok.
He wouldn't have a religion if it weren't for Catholics and Reformers.

Really. I promise you he would be out digging rows in a field and chanting Middle English spells to make the crops grow if it weren't for Catholics and Reformers.

Same with every Open Theist you may see here. Just two things kept them from growing up Chanting Spells and doing other weird Celtic things.

The Catholics are not the same as they were way back then and Calvinism's real value is not on the same issue as it used to be.
I'm personally more Reformed Baptist than I am Presbyterian but
what can be said?
We are all trying to make our way, right?

And some Open Theist are like troubling positions that have never been troubled before.
Which is weird.
I can hardly take it in sometimes.

 

[Krsto]

If you are a man - and you are against Calvinism -
and you are not Kmo who cannot even say what He thinks Messiah means on his own thread -
but any other man - please define
predestination and say why you think Paul uses this word when he does and why he gets so rough in Romans when he is talking about the difference between the Potter and the clay, please.

Predestination in the context of the Romans passage is God choosing to blind the Israelites so they would not accept the Gospel. Being so chosen as vessels of wrath, their lives end in the grave (hell) with no real opportunity to receive the gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ. That does not mean they were chosen to be individuals who would suffer for eternity, as I see it, because eternal suffering is another doctrine and I don't buy it. Paul is rough on them because appearantly there were those who thought it unfair of God to choose some to never have the chance to get saved but be predestined to be destroyed, like when a potter doesn't approve of his own work and pounds it into a lump and starts over with a new pot to make with that clay. As a potter, I've done this numerous times because I couldn't afford to just take out a fresh, unused block of clay to start over with. Paul is saying it doesn't really make much sense for the clay to protest what it is going to be used for but that's in the context of the Jews understanding the consequences quite a bit differently than what is common in Christianity today and for hundreds of years prior. When we are talking about real human beings being tossed into a furnace to burn forever and ever then it makes perfect sense for them to question such a doctrine. And so we do.

And so it goes.

 

[rainee]

Ok, any one other than Kristo?
JK.
Hi Kristo!
I have just pulled my last hair out for the day
CU Tomorrow

 

[Lighthouse]

Oh, hah, I guess I need to slow down. I was thinking of Rev. 13:8 when I said that because I forgot about this 17:8 with the same language but looking at 13:8, which I had always read in the KJV, I see many other versions don't even have the slain lamb as the one who was before the foundation of the earth. My bad.

At any rate, the names being in the book at the beginning is a statement of foreknowledge, not predestination.

Just to be clear.

Or not.

Actually the grammar doesn't suggest that the names that are in the book at the judgment were in there before the foundation of the world. Names have been, and are being, written in the book since then.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Ephesians 1:4-5

atrol: SOD sneaky ol' dude, you swapped bible quotes.

Eph: ch:1. vs:4-5 says not a dicky bird about predestination to damnation.

 

[Sheila B]

Well you learn something every day. That's the first time I've heard anyone use that scripture implying it is saying the names were written in a book that existed since the foundation of the earth.

The Book may have existed from the Foundation, but about those names being blotted out of it and being inscribed in it. . . many verses say it goes both ways.

 

[Sheila B]

Actually the grammar doesn't suggest that the names that are in the book at the judgment were in there before the foundation of the world. Names have been, and are being, written in the book since then.

ditto

 

[Arthur Brain]

You got that idea from the other 2 per cent...vocal aren't they?

The way to check what the early church believed and taught is to read the apostles.

Actually I got it from doing some research though feel free to assume as you wish. Where exactly are you getting this stat from? Is that another assumption?

 

[Ted L Glines]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for September 29th, 2011 09:45 AM

toldailytopic: Are some people born predestined to go to hell?

What an odd question. For monotheists and trinitarian Christions, that would make the gift of Jesus meaningless, and for deists it wouldn't matter (since hell and predestination are fictions to them). Of course, that would depend on whether you believe that predestination is written in stone, wouldn't it?

This question makes you ponder whether your beliefs (salvation, hell, predestination, etc.) matter in the slightest. Do they? Perhaps the truth awaits in the clarity following your death.

:think:

 

[sky.]

I think that the only way predestination and the elect make sense is if we are predestined or elected to hear the Gospel. What you do with it is your business.

Romans 10:6-15

6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

 

[Quincy]

I think of heaven and hell as states of mind. Personally, I don't buy Dante's Inferno. Some people are born into hell - poverty, violence and immorality. Some people make the wrong choices and end up in it as a result. It's not their destiny however. They can escape it if they gain enough wisdom, intelligence and persevere to work to better their lives.

 

[sky.]

I think of heaven and hell as states of mind. Personally, I don't buy Dante's Inferno. Some people are born into hell - poverty, violence and immorality. Some people make the wrong choices and end up in it as a result. It's not their destiny however. They can escape it if they gain enough wisdom, intelligence and persevere to work to better their lives.

I don't know what Dante's Inferno is, should I?

 

[Quincy]

It's the first part of a poem called "The Divine Comedy" :chuckle: . Seems it's how some people envision hell.