toldailytopic: Are some people born predestined to go to hell?

[Krsto]

Better: "Why is anyone not deserving of their just punishment?" :AMR:

The OP question presumes an obligation upon God without warrant.

Your rephrase of the question presumes an obligation upon God to punish a person for ever and ever for even one single sin (since the wages of sin is death and you take death to mean eternal suffering), such an obligation is not only without warrant but contrary to biblical concepts of justice. God told man "an eye for an eye." Is not what's good for the goose good for the gander?

God hath (a) Decreed in himself from all Eternity, by the most wise and holy Counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things whatsoever comes to passe; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin, (b) nor hath fellowship with any therein, nor is violence offered to the will of the Creature, nor yet is the liberty, or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather (c) established, in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power, and faithfulness (d) in accomplishing his Decree.

This was written by a lawyer. 'Nuf said.

We all, in our humanistic finitude, like to think that universalism is the answer, as it often makes our hearts ache to think that many persons will spend eternity in Hell. Sadly, too many of the faithful are not stirred up by this, preferring to sit around in church singing about Mama's favorite rocking chair, full of spiritual stagnation.

Universalism is not the only other option. The bible teaches God will destroy the souls of those who do not receive eternal life.

The simple fact is that God does not tell us why he saves a multitude that "cannot be numbered" and leaves the remainder in their sin. That said, God does admonish us to not even beg the question. Yet, we continue to disobey, talking back to God.

Wrong. We are not talking back to God, we are talking back to you. If we believed God really meant for us to believe what you believe then perhaps we would be talking back to him but we must first determine what is the eternal state of the unsaved and how or why did they end up there and that is what these questions are all about.

Underlying the OP is the modern era question involving the best possible world. Why did God create a world where some go to Hell and others do not? Hence, God is somehow not all powerful, nor all-loving. Sigh.

You mean God never lets his children have questions regarding what his other children are teaching? No wonder we appear to have such a disfunctional family.

The Arminian and all its theological cousins have no answer, faced with the fact that so many won't even have a chance to exercise their so-called free will.

That's not an argument to those of us who believe in annihilation of the unsaved, though our universalist brethren might try to say that annihilation would also not be fair and just for those who never heard the gospel and thus never had a real choice in their destiny. But I disagree. Annihilation, though being a very difficult word to spell, is fair enough, and the gift of eternal life is not fair at all. No one "deserves" such a blessing.

The Reformed answer may seem cold, but it is one with warrant. God is the potter, we are the clay. Attempts to bridge the Creator-created distinction with humanistic sentimentalities is a fool's errand. We do not know what is the wisest thing for God to do, but, God does. We should embrace and confidently trust in the wisdom of God versus attempting to ascend to the heights of God's abode. That has been tried once, and look what happened.

There you go again, assuming those who oppose your doctrine believe it is true. If they don't believe it is true, how is it that they are ascending to the heights of God's abode by asking those questions.

The potter vs. clay analogy in the bible was given regarding the blinding of Isreal's eyes so they would not receive the Gospel so were prevented from receiving eternal life. For those of us who believe their destiny is to be annihilated in the grave then it makes a lot more sense that God could or would predestine some to go there. It doesn't do violence to our biblical and/or innate sense of justice.

God provides an answer in the Cross, and we don't see these sort of questions being asked by the faithful about the supposed injustice of punishing an innocent man on that stick of wood. In fact many wear nice silvery crosses around their necks, so they obviously get it. (I do wonder why they do not also wear electric chairs for earrings.) But why don't they equally get it that if God can will the Cross, He cannot will other things that are equally disconcerting to our finite sensibilities?

To compare the 24 hours (give or take) of physical pain Jesus went through to eternal suffering is quite a stretch. An infinite one, at that. It's a whole lot easier to accept God's part in a very finite suffering. An infinite suffering? You better be bloody sure you haven't made some hermeneutical mistake before you expect everyone else to buy into that idea.

Christ demonstrated the love of God towards His people, so much so as to ask that they be forgiven for what they were doing. But, for those that dishonored God, Christ showed no mercy. Not all are saved, else mercy is meaningless and justice is deniable.

AMR

Again, you are comparing your doctrine to universalism, as if that's the only alternative.

Christ showed mercy on those who dishonor God by teaching "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth," but you show no mercy at all and have no mercy in your heart. Any time an ounce of mercy rises in your soul you beat it down thinking it is humanistic thinking, not recognizing that God gave man a conscious for a reason and that thought contrary to your theology might actually be from God himself.

 

[Lighthouse]

If you define hell to be the grave then all men are predestined to go there, Enoch being an exception.

I take it you don't believe in the rapture? Are you a preterist?

As I see it at some point there will be no more death for even those who have never left their physical bodies. After the judgment and all who are then going to the Lake of Fire have been sent.

And you forgot Elijah.

If you word that question, "Are some men destined to stay there," then yes, I believe Isrealites of Christ's time were blinded by God so as not to accept the Gospel so were predestined to end up in the grave and stay there without having the opportunity to have eternal life.

Where did this come from? It's certainly not Biblical.

Predestination is ridiculously arbitrary and monstrously unfair.

Agreed.

I don't believe in hell anyway. It's just a myth invented by Christians to frighten gullible people into following this religion.

Made up by Christians? When did this supposedly [allegedly] happen?

Nor do I conceive of God as the stereotypical angry Biblical deity ,an old man with a white beard in a long white gown who is constantly observing what we do and sitting in judgment of our every act, sentencing us to hell for trivial matters,a s so many Christians have been led to believe.

Old man? White beard? White gown? Where does the Bible describe God as such? And where does it say He sits in judgment of our every act? Or sentence us to Hell, period; let alone for trivial matters?

Literal belief in the Bible has messed up countless people's minds. It can easily be used a propaganda tool.

No. The problem is that too many people don't actually read the Bible; they just believe what the man in the suit behind the pulpit says. Even if they claim to believe in a literal reading. If they really did believe that and read the Bible for themselves they wouldn't believe a lot of stuff most of Christendom believes today, as the Bible doesn't actually contain much of it.

Wouldn't predestination negate freewill?

Yes. I believe that's the reason Knight asked the question. Some Christians believe in freedom of will, some don't.

Rev 13:8

That does not say that any of them were predestined at, or even before, birth.

 

[Krsto]

My longest post to date I'm sure.

No, you've had longer, but federal headship is only an issue with atheists who don't believe man is accountable to a God. Christians agree that God has the right to do what he wants with us, but for us the question is what does God do with the unsaved, and if we make one conclusion, that they suffer eternally, is that in accordance to the love and justice of God, and if said eternal suffering was God's plan for each person who goes there is that in accordance to the love and justice of God. For those who accept Calvinism, they have to say it is consistant with a God of love and justice. So they have to accept a very strange, to put it mildly, concept of love and justice.

 

[Krsto]

I take it you don't believe in the rapture? Are you a preterist?

As I see it at some point there will be no more death for even those who have never left their physical bodies. After the judgment and all who are then going to the Lake of Fire have been sent.

And you forgot Elijah.

If you word that question, "Are some men destined to stay there," then yes, I believe Isrealites of Christ's time were blinded by God so as not to accept the Gospel so were predestined to end up in the grave and stay there without having the opportunity to have eternal life.

Where did this come from? It's certainly not Biblical.

Which part of that do you dispute?

I tend toward preterism.

Oh yeah, Elijah. I did forget about him. Saved his family the expense of a casket.

 

[Totton Linnet]

No, you've had longer, but federal headship is only an issue with atheists who don't believe man is accountable to a God. Christians agree that God has the right to do what he wants with us, but for us the question is what does God do with the unsaved, and if we make one conclusion, that they suffer eternally, is that in accordance to the love and justice of God, and if said eternal suffering was God's plan for each person who goes there is that in accordance to the love and justice of God. For those who accept Calvinism, they have to say it is consistant with a God of love and justice. So they have to accept a very strange, to put it mildly, concept of love and justice.

No the question is are any born predestined to eternal punishment.

If you have an issue with eternal punishment then it is with God, not Calvin or any other man.

 

[Krsto]

Rev 13:8

Well you learn something every day. That's the first time I've heard anyone use that scripture implying it is saying the names were written in a book that existed since the foundation of the earth.

 

[Krsto]

No the question is are any born predestined to eternal punishment.

If you have an issue with eternal punishment then it is with God, not Calvin or any other man.

How do you and AMR come to these conclusions? Our question is obviously with your theology, not with God. We are simply trying to understand what is written in scripture.

Do you understand that?

 

[Totton Linnet]

Rev 13:8

Their names WERE in but were blotted out.

 

[Totton Linnet]

How do you and AMR come to these conclusions? Our question is obviously with your theology, not with God. We are simply trying to understand what is written in scripture.

Do you understand that?

No, no AMR and I are not the only christians on TOL or the world who believe in eternal punishment nor is Calvin the father of the doctrine. You are changing the debate into a discussion about Universalism, which is rejected by 98 per cent of the church on the basis that it is a direct contradiction to Jesus Christ.

THAT'S what I understand

 

[Todah]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for September 29th, 2011 09:45 AM

toldailytopic: Are some people born predestined to go to hell?

Of course not. And even if it were true there is absolutely nothing anyone could do about it. Not the person, not the entire rest of humanity, put together, no technology, or device, and not even God Himself! Therefore it is a waste of time to even think, or talk, about it.

I no longer believe that the Bible teaches a moment by conscious moment, unending, place of eternal torment, for "unsaved" human beings.

There will be horrible anguish and torment and punishment for an unsaved person, in a hell. That "hell" will be far worse for those who were antagonistic towards God and His children, than for those who were indifferent towards God and His children.

However that "hell", and that death, will be consumed in the Lake of fire, from which no one will ever reappear. They are eternally destroyed, and dead.


It is worth talking about hell and predestination, only because they are "not" true, in the 5 point Calvinistic sense. Every person will be accountable before God for their actions, and for their response to the light of revelation which they have heard and received.

 

[Krsto]

No, no AMR and I are not the only christians on TOL or the world who believe in eternal punishment nor is Calvin the father of the doctrine. You are changing the debate into a discussion about Universalism, which is rejected by 98 per cent of the church on the basis that it is a direct contradiction to Jesus Christ.

THAT'S what I understand

What you understand indicates you haven't understood a single word I've said so I won't belabor the point.

 

[some other dude]

Well you learn something every day. That's the first time I've heard anyone use that scripture implying it is saying the names were written in a book that existed since the foundation of the earth.

:idunno:

How else do you read it?

The lamb was slain before the foundation of the world?

 

[Lighthouse]

Which part of that do you dispute?

I tend toward preterism.

Oh yeah, Elijah. I did forget about him. Saved his family the expense of a casket.

I believe in the rapture, therefore no one who is raptured will ever go to the grave.

:idunno:

How else do you read it?

The lamb was slain before the foundation of the world?

Revelation 17:8 shows that it was the book, not the Lamb being slain.

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

In light of that I don't know how anyone can read it as the Lamb being slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[sky.]

Here is a pretty good link that explains Hyper-Calvinism and Arminianism. I think it explains some things about predestination and the "elect" and what is called "Common Grace" The quoted text is taken from the link. This is all pretty new to me. Calvinism, Spurgeon, Reformed Theology, hyper this hyper that! It is interesting though.

A Primer on Hyper-Calvinism

A hyper-Calvinist is someone who either:
1. Denies that the gospel call applies to all who hear, OR
2. Denies that faith is the duty of every sinner, OR
3. Denies that the gospel makes any "offer" of Christ, salvation, or mercy to the non-elect (or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free and universal), OR
4. Denies that there is such a thing as "common grace," OR
5. Denies that God has any sort of love for the non-elect.

 

[Krsto]

I believe in the rapture, therefore no one who is raptured will ever go to the grave.


Revelation 17:8 shows that it was the book, not the Lamb being slain.

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

In light of that I don't know how anyone can read it as the Lamb being slain from the foundation of the world.

Oh, hah, I guess I need to slow down. I was thinking of Rev. 13:8 when I said that because I forgot about this 17:8 with the same language but looking at 13:8, which I had always read in the KJV, I see many other versions don't even have the slain lamb as the one who was before the foundation of the earth. My bad.

At any rate, the names being in the book at the beginning is a statement of foreknowledge, not predestination.

Just to be clear.

Or not.

 

[Krsto]

Here is a pretty good link that explains Hyper-Calvinism and Arminianism. I think it explains some things about predestination and the "elect" and what is called "Common Grace" The quoted text is taken from the link. This is all pretty new to me. Calvinism, Spurgeon, Reformed Theology, hyper this hyper that! It is interesting though.

A Primer on Hyper-Calvinism

That doesn't seem "hyper" at all, but typical Calvinism. :idunno:

Or perhaps this is how a Calvinist words it when he's had too much caffein? :idunno:

 

[some other dude]

Where does scripture say some were predestined to damnation?

Go find

Ephesians 1:4-5

 

[sky.]

That doesn't seem "hyper" at all, but typical Calvinism. :i dunno:

Or perhaps this is how a Calvinist words it when he's had too much caffeine? :i dunno:

I don't know, you may be right. I just found out that someone I respect very much as a teacher is a 4 point Calvinist or agrees that 4 points are Biblical . I'm trying to figure out why. It seems to hinge on "limited atonement".

 

[rainee]

Where does scripture say some were predestined to damnation?

Go find

With ALL respect SOD I have to agree with Tot in implying that Bible verses are not usually saying someone is predestined to damnation.

If she had asked me that question the closest I could have come is what Jesus said about Judas - that he was one of the chosen - and a devil - now what that means - I do not know for sure -but I offer it up for any who want to comment on it. And would love to know how anyone deals with that happening? Now I do not say this supports a belief I have - for it does not - Judas is a special situation, I think...

 

[rainee]

The most important thing is that predestination is a Bible word.
Why Knight is wording it like this?
Is it prejudicial against Calvinists?

What does Paul use this word for?
Perhaps to bring out the rebellious egotistical men who think they know better than God?