toldailytopic: Are Christians called to forgive the Colorado Movie Theater killer?

[heir]

Paul did not teach different than Jesus on forgiveness.:nono:

So this is what Paul taught?

Mark 11:25-26 KJV And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

No, it's not! This is what our apostle tells us about forgiveness. We have been forgiven ALL trespasses!

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;


You know that Mark 11:26 KJV does not apply to you! And yet, here you are acting as if it says the same as Colossians 2:13 KJV.

Do you believe that if you do not forgive, neither will your father in heaven forgive you?

Is that true of you?

Why can't you just admit that those two verses do not say the same thing? Things that are different are not the same.

You are not supposed to be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord nor of his prisoner, but be thou a partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God (2 Timothy 1:8 KJV). That includes Paul's teaching on forgiveness.

The apostle Paul is our apostle and you are to follow him in doctrine. We are to forgive one another even as God for Christ sake hath forgiven us.

Ephesians 4:32 KJV And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Looks like Christ can forgive heinous killers
http://www.christianpost.com/news/s...wont-seek-parole-gives-jesus-as-reason-54474/
Can you?
Looks like Christ is using Berkowitz to do a mighty thing and saving people in prison. I'm sure he isn't the first.

All is not lost for Holmes.

The question now is:

Can we as Christians forgive the state for not having justice served? (as in the case of Berkowitz, where he should have been given the death penalty).

 

[NewDay]

How did Christ forgive you?

Did He forgive you before you asked for forgiveness?

Interesting questing, Knight....:up:

I think He forgave all mankind, from the foundation of the world, knowing He would one day come and die for us all, but, I do believe that a person has to accept that forgiveness, before He applies it to our lives, in the area of it fulfilling His Will.

In other words, just because we are already forgiven, does not mean we can 'flaunt' it in His face.

A gift has to be accepted and even used, before God says, "well done, good and faithful servant".

His Will is then done.

 

[NewDay]

*
Let's cut to the chase, you are comparing yourself [before you were saved] with that Colorado killer, you suppose that your sins were not so grevious as his, kind of more refined, a better class of sinner weren't you?.

How many TOLlers have done drugs, don't you know that whole gangs are wiped out in the business of supplying you with drugs?

That man is DEAD, slain in trespasses and sins, but YOU were not less dead, how d'you expect sinners to behave?

These kind of crimes are going to get more common and more viscious because the church has her focus on the wrong person...she looks at the murderer when the true enemy is the spirit of murder the devil to whom the murderer is enslaved, we look at the homo and get our placards out to hurl abuse at them and fail to tackle the real enemy which is a spirit of uncleaness.

I'll tell you why, because it is easier. To go behind the scenes and tackle the problem at it's source takes spiritual endeavour and energy and that would interrupt our tv schedule.

We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against wicked spirits in the high places.

But it is much easier to point our finger and express our moral outrage.

This is true. I think the problem with this thread is some are focussing on 'forgiveness', as in only half examining it.

We have to remember that God foreknew what His very creation would do. (He knows all things), in mho.

So, with that in place, He already forgave mankind, before He even created them. He forgave them, because that is His nature/LOVE.

BUT, that does not mean He gave mankind the right to misuse this forgiveness. It is not His Will for that at all. He wants mankind to come to understand the HEART of the issue.

Yes, it is a free gift, but, NO, it is not to be 'taken' lightly. He had to come and die in order to make it AVAILABLE.

Those who spit on His sacrifice, are forgiven, but, they are not in the WILL of God. This word, "WILL" is important.

It is the same for us, and how we apply forgiveness to ALL men, for their wrongs toward us, we forgiven them, but we also know that in order for them to have this forgiveness applied, they must come to terms with what they did to wrong us, and, SEEK the WILL of God on the matter.

You can forgive someone, and we do, but that does not help them fully, UNLESS they understand the full intent of WHY they needed to be forgiven in the first place.

God wants us to not only forgive, but to be witnesses as to WHY forgiveness is needed.

So, depending on which way you look at the term 'forgiveness', there is more to it than just saying, 'yes, I forgive you for your apparant trespass against me'.

God said this in His heart even before the creation of Adam, but, He also has a purpose to work out His WILL so that man can learn why it is necessary, and why it must be applied to us, individually, as we BELIEVE, which has contained in that word, 'asking and confessing'.

 

[NewDay]

I believe I answered this in my last post to you, but what I failed to mention is if one goes to hell today they go with their sins already forgiven, but they did not receive the love of the truth that they could be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJV And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

I agree with this. Mankind has already been forgiven.

Where I would probably differ from you is that I do not believe Jesus taught differently on it. He just emphasises the NEED to 'take it to heart', and ask for it...and so did Paul.

You think a man does not have to ask for it, and that is not true as I see it.

You somehow change the bible to make a claim that to 'believe' means you do not have to 'ask or confess', when the bible does not teach that, not even Paul.

Paul taught the same as Jesus on the matter, for it was Jesus that taught Him.

Paul on asking and confessing:

Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.


Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

My point is that Paul, too..taught that one should ASK.

Likewise, confess:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus[/U], and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

It is always confess and believe. You leave out the confess part, and the asking part, for your own motives, that I have no clue why.

Knight understands it correctly ...in mho. You must have a repentant heart, one that will not be ashamed to ASK and CONFESS.

Paul quotes Jesus:

Rom 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.



Even the demons believe. Believing alone is not the gospel.


Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

When a person does this, they receive the forgiveness. Being forgiven, and receiving it are two different things....:chuckle:

If you have not asked and confessed, you have a huge problem.

..........and, to teach that Paul taught the opposite is making Paul a liar. Paul is not a liar.

 

[NewDay]

That is a good question!

Yep...she leaves out the part what we should do to have it applied.

:thumb:

 

[NewDay]

Then no, you do not believe that all people will be saved, even though you believe that Christ has already forgiven everyone - which means we are all sin free.

See what i believe is that Christ offers forgiveness to everyone, but some will not come to Him that they might have life.

John 5:40
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

We have to come to Him. Forgiveness is not automatic.

Agreed...we are forgiven, but it must be APPLIED.

We are all reconciled/forgiven, but we must ASK and CONFESS, through believing, for it to take effect on us.

 

[NewDay]

Believing that you have to ask to be forgiven is to believe that you have not already been forgiven.

Colossians 2:13 KJV And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

That verse says nothing of the sort. Read Paul in context, please.

 

[NewDay]

by His faith and finished work on the cross in my place
Yes!

Colossians 2:13 KJV And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

I never asked Him for anything. I trusted Christ as my Saviour believing how that Christ died for my sins, was buried and was raised again the third day for my justification.

You should do what Paul taught, who got it from Jesus, which is to ask and confess, too....that part is where you prove your love towards Him, and how you are not ashamed of His Gospel.

Are you too ashamed to ask and confess before men?

He said this for those who were:

Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.


I know you have your teachings from following man and what they said, but you should really hear Jesus who taught Paul the same.

 

[NewDay]

Lighthouse,

You didn't answer the questions I asked you. Would you, please?

If you're being honest with yourself and the scriptures you should have already seen that what Christ taught while on earth about forgiveness differs from that which Paul preached. And while that may be news to someone who has never heard of right division, this should not be new information to you. So when you see they differ, that they contradict one another, why is it that you still hold to Christ's words to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24 KJV) as He was a minister of the circumcision (Romans 15:8 KJV) when you know good and well that you are to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV) by considering what Paul says (2 Timothy 2:7 KJV)?

Who said anything about throwing out what Jesus said (as you say)? That sounds like something someone that opposes right division would imply. Rightly divide the word of truth, Lighthouse! All of the Bible is FOR our learning (Romans 15:4 KJV), but it's not all written directly TO us. Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles (Romans 11:13 KJV, 1 Timothy 2:7 KJV, 2 Timothy 1:11 KJV), given the dispensation of the gospel (1 Corinthians 9:17 KJV, the dispensation grace of God for you Gentiles (Ephesians 3:1-6 KJV). You are to follow Paul in doctrine 1 Corinthians 4:15-16 KJV, 1 Corinthians 11:1 KJV, 2 Timothy 2:2 KJV, 2 Timothy 2:7-8 KJV, to hold fast the form of sound words which thou hast heard of Paul~ Romans through Philemon (2 Timothy 1:13 KJV)~ which is written directly to the Body of Christ.

made up

 

[NewDay]

Paul did not teach different than Jesus on forgiveness.:nono:

If he did you should be able to post verses to prove so.


You are the one who says we are not to follow Jesus' words on forgiveness.

amen

 

[Lighthouse]

So this is what Paul taught?

Mark 11:25-26 KJV And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

No, it's not! This is what our apostle tells us about forgiveness. We have been forgiven ALL trespasses!

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;


You know that Mark 11:26 KJV does not apply to you! And yet, here you are acting as if it says the same as Colossians 2:13 KJV.

Do you believe that if you do not forgive, neither will your father in heaven forgive you?

Is that true of you?

Why can't you just admit that those two verses do not say the same thing? Things that are different are not the same.

You are not supposed to be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord nor of his prisoner, but be thou a partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God (2 Timothy 1:8 KJV). That includes Paul's teaching on forgiveness.

The apostle Paul is our apostle and you are to follow him in doctrine. We are to forgive one another even as God for Christ sake hath forgiven us.

Ephesians 4:32 KJV And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Why did God forgive me? When did God forgive me? To whom was Jesus speaking? To whom did Paul write? Jesus and Paul were not in disagreement, they were referring to different sets of people for whom what they had to say was true. And in the end Paul never wrote anything that repealed Jesus' words to forgive those who repent. And as you've shown, if we do not forgive James Holmes we do not risk being unforgiven.

 

[NewDay]

Originally Posted by heir

So this is what Paul taught?

Mark 11:25-26 KJV And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

He would teach that to sinners, yes. For Jesus was talking to sinners. It does not make Paul and Jesus have two different gospels.

The 'circumcision' were those who were not yet saved, salvation was going to the jew first, and Jesus was speaking to unsaved people in this case.

No, it's not! This is what our apostle tells us about forgiveness. We have been forgiven ALL trespasses!

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Yes, because we are no longer unconverted, and sinners.

It is not two gospels, like you make it.

Jesus and Paul would tell a sinner the same, likewise those who were covered from sin.

Your two gospel theory is a sham...and a lie.

We all get to the BOC in the same way; by doing what Jesus expected of us, which is to likewise do the same that Paul said every sinner must do. Confess Jesus as our Lord and Savior, and ask for the forgiveness to be APPLIED...by biblical repentance, and a sincere heart.