toldailytopic: Are Christians called to forgive the Colorado Movie Theater killer?

[noguru]

I could have sworn you were an idealist...:think:

lain:

Well if you can call Platonic elitism an ideal. :chuckle:

 

[bybee]

Unless, of course, we disagree.



:rotfl:

So, was I on that list?lain:

Indubitably!

 

[Angel4Truth]

Ephesians 4:32 KJV
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

"even as"

In this dispensation, we are to forgive others, not on the basis of whether they have asked us, or not, but on the basis of God the Father, forgiving us, "for Christ's sake," i.e., we never ask forgiveness for our sins-we are to believe that the sin/sins issue was settled completely 2000 years ago. And, accordingly, because of what Christ is, and what He did, including forgiving us w/o us having any inclination to be forgiven, dying for us while we were yet sinners.....as the principle of grace operates independently of merit, or lack thereof, on the sinner's part, we are to forgive in like manner, disregarding the offender's "pleading...asking...". God the Father already has forgiven us, "for Christ's sake," and tells us to believe it, based upon what the Christ has already done as pertaining to the sin/sins issue. If someone sins against you, we are to say, "I forgive you," not because you asked for my forgiveness, but because the Christ forgave me. And we are to move on.

Forgive me if someone else mentioned this, but isnt that written to believers and doesnt it follow that we are to forgive those who ask?

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Yes. A fair trial and a swift execution is a Christian's way of "forgiving".

Or in the words of John Creasy in the movie "Man on Fire":

Elderly Man: "In the church, they say to forgive."

Creasy: "Forgiveness is between them and God. It's my job to arrange the meeting."

 

[Totton Linnet]

Ephesians 4:32 KJV
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

"even as"

In this dispensation, we are to forgive others, not on the basis of whether they have asked us, or not, but on the basis of God the Father, forgiving us, "for Christ's sake," i.e., we never ask forgiveness for our sins-we are to believe that the sin/sins issue was settled completely 2000 years ago. And, accordingly, because of what Christ is, and what He did, including forgiving us w/o us having any inclination to be forgiven, dying for us while we were yet sinners.....as the principle of grace operates independently of merit, or lack thereof, on the sinner's part, we are to forgive in like manner, disregarding the offender's "pleading...asking...". God the Father already has forgiven us, "for Christ's sake," and tells us to believe it, based upon what the Christ has already done as pertaining to the sin/sins issue. If someone sins against you, we are to say, "I forgive you," not because you asked for my forgiveness, but because the Christ forgave me. And we are to move on.

*
The essential docrine is true but we do have to appropriate the provision it is not concievable to me that we would come demanding but in humble petition. The line between faith and presumption is extraordinarily thin.

However if we understand the truth shown here we will forgive, how would you be praying for that man's soul while harbouring ill will toward him?

But his crime was a civil matter too so that is another matter.

 

[heir]

But most importantly, you shouldn't forgive anyone unless they are repentant and are asking for forgiveness.

It's as if you've been taught forgiveness for those under another dispensation.

What does Paul say about forgiveness?

 

[heir]

Ephesians 4:32 KJV
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

"even as"

In this dispensation, we are to forgive others, not on the basis of whether they have asked us, or not, but on the basis of God the Father, forgiving us, "for Christ's sake," i.e., we never ask forgiveness for our sins-we are to believe that the sin/sins issue was settled completely 2000 years ago. And, accordingly, because of what Christ is, and what He did, including forgiving us w/o us having any inclination to be forgiven, dying for us while we were yet sinners.....as the principle of grace operates independently of merit, or lack thereof, on the sinner's part, we are to forgive in like manner, disregarding the offender's "pleading...asking...". God the Father already has forgiven us, "for Christ's sake," and tells us to believe it, based upon what the Christ has already done as pertaining to the sin/sins issue. If someone sins against you, we are to say, "I forgive you," not because you asked for my forgiveness, but because the Christ forgave me. And we are to move on.

I just saw this! :BRAVO:

 

[Totton Linnet]

That man believed he was acting under his own free will, the bible says he is in bondage to a wicked murderer. It is the church who has taught that man has free will as a gift from God. Paul taught that those outside Christ are under the control of the god of this world, the prince of the power of the air who worketh disobedience in them.

The church would say to him "give up your own free will and come to Christ"

Nobody who supposes they have free will would give it up. The gospel says "man you are in slavery to sin, you sin because you are bound to as sure as you are born....come at once to Christ that He might set you free."

Free will is the grand delusion that the devil has perpetrated on mankind since the garden of Eden, it is the channel through which temptation comes.

 

[Lighthouse]

toldailytopic: Are Christians called to forgive the Colorado Movie Theater killer?

Are Christians called to forgive the Colorado Movie Theater killer?

ANSWER: No.

First off... you can only forgive someone if they have sinned against you. You don't have the right to forgive someone who has sinned against others.

But most importantly, you shouldn't forgive anyone unless they are repentant and are asking for forgiveness.

Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. Luke 17:3

And finally, even if he were repentant, and the victims forgave him... justice still must be served therefore the shooter should still be put to death.

This

"Shouldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant, even as I had compassion on thee? [34] And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. [35] So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts" (Matthew 18:33-35).

"To thee only have I sinned, and have done evil before thee: that thou mayst be justified in thy words and mayst overcome when thou art judged" (Psalm 51:6).

"And when they were come to the place which is called Calvary, they crucified him there; and the robbers, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. [34] And Jesus said: Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. But they, dividing his garments, cast lots" (Luke 23:33-34).

What do any of these have to do with the case in question?

I was going to mention Ephesians 4:32, but John W beat me to it.

We are to forgive him because Christ forgave us and because we would want to be forgiven.

Did you receive forgiveness before you repented?

By being the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world.

"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." - Luke 23:34

"My son, your sins are forgiven." - Mark 2:5

In either case, did the ones who got forgiveness ask for it?

In the first case they didn't have any idea they were doing wrong.

And in the second, the man came to Jesus and Jesus knew what he really wanted. The paralytic didn't ask for forgiveness because he didn't know Jesus could grant it, not to mention it hadn't worked that way previously.

Forgive me if someone else mentioned this, but isnt that written to believers and doesnt it follow that we are to forgive those who ask?

Precisely.

 

[Traditio]

What do any of these have to do with the case in question?

Knight asserted that we shouldn't forgive the Colorado shooter. I, in turn, pointed out that Christ says that we are to forgive everyone and bear hatred towards nobody.

He asserted that we can forgive only those who have offended us. I pointed out that all sin chiefly is against God.

He asserted that we shouldn't forgive unless asked for pardon. I pointed out that Christ forgave those who were crucifying him.

:idunno:

 

[Lighthouse]

Knight asserted that we shouldn't forgive the Colorado shooter. I, in turn, pointed out that Christ says that we are to forgive everyone and bear hatred towards nobody.

No you didn't. Christ did not contradict Himself, so when He said to forgive those who repent He meant it, and anytime He said we should forgive He meant that we should forgive them if they repented.

He asserted that we can forgive only those who have offended us. I pointed out that all sin chiefly is against God.

That's irrelevant.

He asserted that we shouldn't forgive unless asked for pardon. I pointed out that Christ forgave those who were crucifying him.

Because they truly did not know they were doing anything wrong.

:idunno:

Obviously.

 

[eameece]

When Christianity is invoked to support gentleness, forgiveness, generosity and peace, then it will be aligned with what Christ intended.

 

[Rusha]

The creep isn't sorry for his actions. He doesn't care that he left families and friends devastated.

Being that I do not or could not forgive this guy, I don't expect others to do what I would be incapable of doing myself.

 

[Lighthouse]

When Christianity is invoked to support gentleness, forgiveness, generosity and peace, then it will be aligned with what Christ intended.

Scripture?

 

[Totton Linnet]

Ephesians 4:32 KJV
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

"even as"

In this dispensation, we are to forgive others, not on the basis of whether they have asked us, or not, but on the basis of God the Father, forgiving us, "for Christ's sake," i.e., we never ask forgiveness for our sins-we are to believe that the sin/sins issue was settled completely 2000 years ago. And, accordingly, because of what Christ is, and what He did, including forgiving us w/o us having any inclination to be forgiven, dying for us while we were yet sinners.....as the principle of grace operates independently of merit, or lack thereof, on the sinner's part, we are to forgive in like manner, disregarding the offender's "pleading...asking...". God the Father already has forgiven us, "for Christ's sake," and tells us to believe it, based upon what the Christ has already done as pertaining to the sin/sins issue. If someone sins against you, we are to say, "I forgive you," not because you asked for my forgiveness, but because the Christ forgave me. And we are to move on.

*
Somebody ha said that this is for christians, strictly that is true but unless christians start to catch on to truths like this they cannot expect the world to take too much heed of them.

Let the world see that christians regard God's doctrines above man's thoughts.

 

[Angel4Truth]

*
Somebody ha said that this is for christians, strictly that is true but unless christians start to catch on to truths like this they cannot expect the world to take too much heed of them.

Let the world see that christians regard God's doctrines above man's thoughts.

Jesus said to forgive as you are forgiven.

How are we forgiven? By asking for forgiveness.

That is Gods doctrine. God doesn't save those who do not ask, in other words their sins are not forgiven because they have not humbled themselves and asked forgiveness (admission of wrongdoing).

Where we would be wrong before God would be to deny forgiveness to one who asked for it, because we are to forgive them as Christ forgave us when we asked.

Even the parable about it all that Christ told is about someone asking for mercy and gaining it from the King, but then denying the same to someone else. Matthew 18:23-35

 

[Totton Linnet]

Jesus said to forgive as you are forgiven.

How are we forgiven? By asking for forgiveness.

That is Gods doctrine. God doesn't save those who do not ask, in other words their sins are not forgiven because they have not humbled themselves and asked forgiveness (admission of wrongdoing).

Where we would be wrong before God would be to deny forgiveness to one who asked for it, because we are to forgive them as Christ forgave us when we asked.

Even the parable about it all that Christ told is about someone asking for mercy and gaining it from the King, but then denying the same to someone else. Matthew 18:23-35

*
While we were yet dead in our sins Christ died for the ungodly.

It is God who takes the initiative.

 

[Angel4Truth]

*
While we were yet dead in our sins Christ died for the ungodly.

It is God who takes the initiative.

Died for them and offer them forgiveness is the same now as granting it?

Do you believe all mankind is saved by that act whether they receive it or not?

Does receiving require something on our part or not?

 

[heir]

No you didn't. Christ did not contradict Himself, so when He said to forgive those who repent He meant it, and anytime He said we should forgive He meant that we should forgive them if they repented.

When did Christ say that TO you? Why do you (and Knight) take doctrine on forgiveness in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and apply it TO the church, the Body of Christ?

If you're going to take what Christ says in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John on forgiveness as something that applies TO you in the dispensation of the grace of God, then you must aslo apply this:

Mark 11:25-26 KJV And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

If you do not forgive, neither will your father in heaven forgive you?

Is that true of you or me?

Consider what Paul says. He writes:

Ephesians 4:32 KJV And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Colossians 2:13 KJV And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

[heir]

Does receiving require something on our part or not?

trust, belief