To teach that people are born in sin is to teach against what Jesus taught

[Samie]

I can't understand why you refuse to answer a simple question.

Please see this post.

 

[glorydaz]

I can't understand why you refuse to answer a simple question.

Please see this post.

Excuse me? How many threads are you going to start, and how many times do I have to give you the answer before you actually address what I've posted? You can ask the same question again and again, and I can answer it over and over, but, at some point, you'll simply have to try and have a normal discussion. Otherwise...you're just talking to yourself, and then you can give yourself whatever answer suits your fancy. Which, apparently is the unscriptural notion of being "plugged into Christ".

 

[Samie]

glorydaz,

What, to you, is insensible in the question, "Which comes first, the empowering or the act of believing"?

 

[Samie]

Excuse me? How many threads are you going to start, and how many times do I have to give you the answer before you actually address what I've posted? You can ask the same question again and again, and I can answer it over and over, but, at some point, you'll simply have to try and have a normal discussion. Otherwise...you're just talking to yourself, and then you can give yourself whatever answer suits your fancy. Which, apparently is the unscriptural notion of being "plugged into Christ".

Oh, excuse me ,too. I have addressed the issue in your posts that are summarized in " UNLESS one believes, he cannot be in Christ". That is why I asked "Which comes first, the empowering or the act of believing?".

But it seemed the question is too difficult, you refuse to answer the question with the alibi that it does not make any sense to you.

 

[glorydaz]

That question doesn't really make any sense to me. :think:

We are not "empowered" to do anything. But the POWER in the Gospel is what persuaded us to believe.

Then we were sealed with the Holy Spirit.... after we heard and believed the Gospel.

Eph. 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,​

The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Which tells us that we believe, and are saved after we hear the Gospel. We are begotten (given life) when we believe the Gospel.

1 Corinthians 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.​

Oh, excuse me ,too. I have addressed the issue in your posts that are summarized in " UNLESS one believes, he cannot be in Christ". That is why I asked "Which comes first, the empowering or the act of believing?".

But it seemed the question is too difficult, you refuse to answer the question with the alibi that it does not make any sense to you.

Looks to me like I answered your question just fine. You just don't like the fact that we are not empowered to believe. We are not empowered to do anything. We believe, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in us, and we trust in the power of God for everything, from that time forward. The power is not ours, it is God's and His word.

Try reading what I said after I dissed your question....which requires, of course, you ditch the pride and open your ears.

 

[Samie]

Looks to me like I answered your question just fine. You just don't like the fact that we are not empowered to believe. We are not empowered to do anything. We believe, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in us, and we trust in the power of God for everything, from that time forward. The power is not ours, it is God's and His word.

Try reading what I said after I dissed your question....which requires, of course, you ditch the pride and open your ears.

No reason for ad hominems, glory daz.

You are saying we are not EMPOWERED to believe. From what verse did you get that from the Bible?

Would Christ ask people to repent and believe unless they were first EMPOWERED?

Mark 1:14-15 14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

 

[Samie]

In Greek, "believing" (pisteuo) is exercising faith (pistis).

So unless one has faith to exercise, he cannot believe. And faith is fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22) only those in Christ can bear (John 15:4, 5).

Clearly then, from Scriptures, unless one is first in Christ, he cannot have faith, and therefore POWERLESS to do the act of believing.

But you teach the opposite. Believe first, then one can be in Christ. Cart before the horse.

 

[glorydaz]

No reason for ad hominems, glory daz.

You are saying we are not EMPOWERED to believe. From what verse did you get that from the Bible?

Would Christ ask people to repent and believe unless they were first EMPOWERED?

Mark 1:14-15 14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

I guess you could say God gave us a brain and the ability to use it.

So, here's an example for you. I look outside and see drops of water coming from the sky. I go outside, and sure enough, I see it's raining. I hear the pitter patter on the roof. I feel the moisture. And, I believe in my heart of hearts it's raining. Was I empowered to believe that? You tell me.

 

[glorydaz]

In Greek, "believing" (pisteuo) is exercising faith (pistis).

So unless one has faith to exercise, he cannot believe. And faith is fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22) only those in Christ can bear (John 15:4, 5).

Clearly then, from Scriptures, unless one is first in Christ, he cannot have faith, and therefore POWERLESS to do the act of believing.

But you teach the opposite. Believe first, then one can be in Christ. Cart before the horse.

Nope. You're doing the same thing with FAITH that you did with the word POWER. You're confusing the fruit of the Spirit with the faith that comes from hearing the word of God. What is faith?

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.​

How do we get it?

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.​

Right here. How can they believe in Him unless the hear? And how can they hear without a PREACHER? There is nothing there about being empowered first. Nothing there about this hearing being the fruit of the Spirit. It's through the PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL that we hear and believe.

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?​

The fruit of the Spirit is not saving faith that comes from hearing the Gospel. It has another purpose. It is a piece of the armour of God....our shield against all doubts....against the fiery darts of the enemy. That SHIELD OF FAITH is given to those who already believe.

Eph. 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.​

 

[Samie]

I guess you could say God gave us a brain and the ability to use it.

So, here's an example for you. I look outside and see drops of water coming from the sky. I go outside, and sure enough, I see it's raining. I hear the pitter patter on the roof. I feel the moisture. And, I believe in my heart of hearts it's raining. Was I empowered to believe that? You tell me.

Let us. instead, allow Scripture to tell you:

KJV Acts 17:28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being;

 

[Samie]

Nope. You're doing the same thing with FAITH that you did with the word POWER. You're confusing the fruit of the Spirit with the faith that comes from hearing the word of God. What is faith?

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.​

How do we get it?

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.​

Right here. How can they believe in Him unless the hear? And how can they hear without a PREACHER? There is nothing there about being empowered first.

Read between the lines, sister. How can you hear UNLESS you have the power to do the act of HEARING?

Nothing there about this hearing being the fruit of the Spirit.

Of course. It's faith that is fruit, NOT the act of hearing.

It's through the PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL that we hear and believe.

No. It's through His power that flows through you, being part of His Body, that you are able to hear and believe.

Again, your belief is cyclical: You cannot be empowered to hear the gospel unless you hear it.

The fruit of the Spirit is not saving faith that comes from hearing the Gospel. It has another purpose. It is a piece of the armour of God....our shield against all doubts....against the fiery darts of the enemy. That SHIELD OF FAITH is given to those who already believe.

There is only one faith, Scripture says so. Eph 4:5

 

[glorydaz]

Read between the lines, sister. How can you hear UNLESS you have the power to do the act of HEARING?

Ah, it's the "reading between the lines" that will get you every time.

That's where man's "wisdom" wreaks havoc on the word of God.


Only read exactly what is written, and the TRUTH will come to the fore.
Nothing of you and all of God.

 

[Judson50]

Both Arminians and Calvinists teach that people are born in sin. And to be born in sin is to be born lost, being born NOT in Christ.

But Jesus taught otherwise as He explained in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin and lost son (Luke 15:1-24).

Before the sheep got lost, it was with its shepherd in the sheepfold.
Before the coin was lost, it was with its owner.
Before the son went lost, he was at home with his father.

The sheep, coin and son did not start already lost. So with us. We started life NOT lost, and to be not lost is to be In Christ. But we all, like sheep, went astray (Isa 53:6). Hence, we are all enjoined to repent or perish (Luke 13:3, 5).

The command to repent is the same command God made in the old testament (Ezek 18:30); the same command He now wants all men everywhere to do (Acts 17:30); the same command that Jesus issued in the gospel that He preached (Mark 1:14, 15); the same gospel He wanted preached to the world before He comes again (Mat 24:14).

By teaching that people are born in sin, many preachers teach against what Jesus taught and preach a gospel different from what Jesus preached.

I don't think these preachers want to be accursed (Gal 1:6-9). Are you one of those preachers?

I think the purpose of the parable was to show the sheep/coin/son is representative of humans being with their shepherd/owner/father prior to the fall.

Then the fall happens.

Then they are lost.


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[glorydaz]

There is only one faith, Scripture says so. Eph 4:5

Perfect example. You did the same with the word power, which leaves you denying that the GOSPEL IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION. You have yet to address that, because you insist on choosing one verse over another....not seeing they are both true. Christ is the power of God and the Gospel is the Power of God unto salvation.

You say there is only one faith, because you rip a verse out of context....ignoring what Paul was talking about. He was speaking of the one faith that saves. He wasn't speaking of the SHIELD OF FAITH (which you conveniently ignore), not was he talking about the fruit of the SPIRIT which only includes faith.

Look here.....Why would Jesus rebuke Peter for having little faith if he was empowered with faith in order to believe?

Matthew 8:26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.​

Notice how the same word faith is used in just this one verse. Live by faith, saved by grace through faith, all men given a measure of faith, little faith, increase my faith....

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.​

Start a thread on faith, and you'll see that faith is much more than you can ever imagine by giving it only ONE meaning. Faith can be increased through prayer....your theory leaves no room for that.

 

[Samie]

Ah, it's the "reading between the lines" that will get you every time.

That's where man's "wisdom" wreaks havoc on the word of God.


Only read exactly what is written, and the TRUTH will come to the fore.
Nothing of you and all of God.

Which is what you need. You insist to have power even if NOT yet PLUGGED IN to Him Who is the ONLY source of power, Christ - the power of God (1 Cor 1:24).

You don't believe Jesus when He said that APART from Him man can do NOTHING (John 15:5). Instead, you insist man can do SOMETHING - he can hear & believe, while still APART from Christ!

 

[Samie]

Perfect example. You did the same with the word power, which leaves you denying that the GOSPEL IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION.

Excuse me, sister. Where in my posts did I deny "that the GOSPEL IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION"? Please show me that post, or you owe me an apology.

You have yet to address that, because you insist on choosing one verse over another....not seeing they are both true. Christ is the power of God and the Gospel is the Power of God unto salvation.

That's why I was asking you to show me my post where I denied "that the GOSPEL IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION".

You say there is only one faith,

I quoted the Bible, sister. NOT just me speaking; it's the Bible. Eph 4:5

because you rip a verse out of context....ignoring what Paul was talking about. He was speaking of the one faith that saves. He wasn't speaking of the SHIELD OF FAITH (which you conveniently ignore), not was he talking about the fruit of the SPIRIT which only includes faith.

The Bible says there is only one faith, sister, and that faith IS fruit of the Spirit and IS our shield.

I thought you were saying in an earlier post to "Only read exactly what is written, and the TRUTH will come to the fore."?

Look here.....Why would Jesus rebuke Peter for having little faith if he was empowered with faith in order to believe?

. In Greek, believing (pisteuo) is exercising faith (pistis). It is unfortunate that there is no English word "faithing". Hence, faith is needed in order for one to believe, just like you need a bike to go biking. Peter was rebuked for NOT believing despite having faith.

 

[Samie]

I think the purpose of the parable was to show the sheep/coin/son is representative of humans being with their shepherd/owner/father prior to the fall.

Then the fall happens.

Then they are lost.

NOT prior to the fall of Adam, BUT PRIOR to our own individual fall.

That's why Scripture says "we all like sheep went astray" (Isa 53:6). One can't go astray UNLESS he is first NOT astray. It is "we all" who went astray; hence it is "we all" who started life NOT astray.

 

[Judson50]

NOT prior to the fall of Adam, BUT PRIOR to our own individual fall.

That's why Scripture says "we all like sheep went astray" (Isa 53:6). One can't go astray UNLESS he is first NOT astray. It is "we all" who went astray; hence it is "we all" who started life NOT astray.

Curious, why can’t the parable be speaking about mankind prior to the fall being “not astray” then mankind went astray?


Parable Defined

παραβολή

parabolē

par-ab-ol-ay'

From G3846; a similitude (“parable”), that is, (symbolically) fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a moral), apoth gm or adage: - comparison, figure, parable, proverb.


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[Samie]

Curious, why can’t the parable be speaking about mankind prior to the fall being “not astray” then mankind went astray?


Parable Defined

παραβολή

parabolē

par-ab-ol-ay'

From G3846; a similitude (“parable”), that is, (symbolically) fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a moral), apoth gm or adage: - comparison, figure, parable, proverb.

PRIOR to the fall, there was only Adam, not mankind.

 

[Samie]

Hi Judson 50;

Now my turn to ask, since you have seen my responses to you.

Why can’t the parable be speaking about each one's individual fall being “not astray” then went astray?