ECT Time & Anthropomorphism with GOD
- Thread starter Tambora
- Start date
Oh boy, puzzles!
I would say the word 'given' implies time, because to give someone something automatically implies that there was a moment when they did not have it.
Not to mention that if there is no time when it is given, then the one it is given to has to also be outside of time.
:dizzy:
Is it OK if I feel like it's time to lighten things up?
glorydaz
Well-known member
It's best to be flexible.
Even if you kinda settle on one thing that makes good sense, some other thought might come along that makes even better sense.
glorydaz
Well-known member
glorydaz
Well-known member
Glass darkly....
Sure.
This is kinda an informal thread just to kick around thoughts and questions.
YES!
I gave ya a good bat to use along the way.Show off....with your graphics.
Ask Mr. Religion
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The ectypal and archetypal understanding of what God knows and what we know via His accommodations in special revelation (the Bible):
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...here-Between&p=4594561&viewfull=1#post4594561
AMR
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...here-Between&p=4594561&viewfull=1#post4594561
AMR
You're doing it wrong! :sibbie:Show off....with your graphics.
I just think of the way everything is cyclical or circular in the Bible. Seasons, plantings and harvests, the planets and luminaries, and the rise and fall of nations. Even the "paths of righteousness" is not a linear path, but a circular path. The word used in Hebrew, as I recall, is the same used for oxen going around and around the grist mill wearing a path by repetition. It's the word "rut". A "rut" is a good thing when speaking of the paths of righteousness...a well worn road. Around and around time goes.
With God at the center of all creation, as things revolve around him, it would be infinite.
PS. I'm just tossing out ideas here...in case anyone gets the idea I'm preaching some Calvinist Doctrine (like Limited Atonement).
Here ya go.
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Ask Mr. Religion
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Me, too.
Chapter 2. Of God, and of the Holy Trinity
1. There is but one only, (Deut. 6:4, 1 Cor. 8:4-6) living, and true God, (1 Thess. 1:9, Jer. 10:10) who is infinite in being and perfection, (Job 11:7-9, Job 26:14) a most pure spirit, (John 4:24) invisible, (1 Tim. 1:17) without body, parts, (Deut. 4:15-16, John 4:24, Luke 24:39) or passions; (Acts 14:11,15) immutable, (James 1:17, Mal. 3:6) immense, (1 Kings 8:27, Jer. 23:23-24) eternal, (Ps. 90:2, 1 Tim. 1:17) incomprehensible, (Ps. 145:3) almighty, (Gen. 17:1, Rev. 4:8) most wise, (Rom. 16:27) most holy, (Isa. 6:3, Rev. 4:8) most free, (Ps. 115:3) most absolute; (Exod. 3:14) working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will, (Eph. 1:11) for His own glory; (Prov. 16:4, Rom. 11:36) most loving, (1 John 4:8,16) gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; (Exod. 34:6-7) the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him; (Heb. 11:6) and withal, most just, and terrible in His judgments, (Neh. 9:32-33) hating all sin, (Ps. 5:5-6) and who will by no means clear the guilty. (Nah. 1:2-3, Exod. 34:7)
2. God hath all life, (John 5:26) glory, (Acts 7:2) goodness, (Ps. 119:68) blessedness, (1 Tim. 6:15, Rom. 9:5) in and of Himself; and is alone in and unto Himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which He hath made, (Acts 17:24-25) nor deriving any glory from them, (Job 22:2-3) but only manifesting His own glory in, by, unto, and upon them. He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things (Rom. 11:36) and hath most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them whatsoever Himself pleaseth. (Rev. 4:11, 1 Tim. 6:15, Dan. 4:25, 35) In His sight all things are open and manifest, (Heb. 4:13) His knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, (Rom. 11:33-34, Ps. 147:5) so as nothing is to Him contingent, or uncertain. (Acts 15:18, Ezek. 11:5) He is most holy in all His counsels, in all His works, and in all His commands. (Ps. 145:17, Rom. 7:12) To Him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience He is pleased to require of them. (Rev. 5:12-14)
3. In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: (1 John 5:7. Matt 3:16-17, Matt. 28:19, 2 Cor. 13:14) the Father is of none, neither begotten, not proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; (John 1:14, 18) the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son. (John 15:26, Gal. 4:6)
Exposition of the above:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/shaw/shaw_02.html
AMR
I think one of the better arguments against God being outside of time is this:
Jesus Christ is not eternally suffering on the Cross.
I think if there was any one passage that goes against the idea that time was created by God, resulting in Him being outside of time, is in Hebrews.
Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another—He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. - Hebrews 9:23-28 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews9:23-28&version=NKJV
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:8-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Peter3:8-9&version=NKJV
The verse is not talking about how God experiences time.
It's talking first about how powerful God is ("one day is as a thousand years"). In other words, God can accomplish in one day what man would take a thousand years to do.
And second, it's talking about His patience, His longsuffering towards us ("a thousand years as one day"), as verse 9 explains.
Context is important, PJ.
Actually, the phrase used in 2 Timothy 1:9 does not say "time began."
πρὸ χρόνων ἀιωνίων
pro chronon aionion
before time eternal
"Before time eternal" certainly does not sound like "before time began."
