ECT Time & Anthropomorphism with GOD

D

DAN P

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Tambora said:
Well ......

Why is my statement a loaded assumption, but your above statement is not?
You start with the assumption that time did not exist with GOD before creation and continue that assumption to your conclusion.

That's what we are trying to determine by asking questions about it from both perspectives.
So I don't consider either of our statements as "loaded".
I think they help us explore thoughts on the matter.

If it was not necessary, then it was purposeless, aimless, meaningless, of no value.
Plus the fact that we have no indication in scripture that GOD ever did anything that was not in sequence.
So why would any theology student want to insist on adding it to a study of the GOD of scripture?
I mean, some (not saying you) are so adamant about it that they will call anyone a heretic for not believing it.

The theory of timelessness in theology started around the time of Ambrose and Augustine.
Augustine was a Platonist.
Augustine was so enthralled with Platonism that he once suggested that one could not sufficiently understand scripture but through the lens of Platonism, and did all he could to merge them.
He also commented that he did not believe hardly any of scripture until after he studied Platonism.
This is not news, it has been known of Augustine that he relied heavily on Platonism and incorporated it into his theology.

I like the topic.
I think it's interesting to talk about.
But if it cannot be verified with scripture, then it is little more than speculative philosophy talk.
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Hi and in 2 Peter 3:8 say that a thousand years is like one day , so it seems that recognizes DAYS , YEARS and TIME !!

In Eph 2:7 , in the AGES / AION means time ?

dan p
 
Tambora

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DAN P said:
Hi and in 2 Peter 3:8 say that a thousand years is like one day , so it seems that recognizes DAYS , YEARS and TIME !!

In Eph 2:7 , in the AGES / AION means time ?

dan p
Click to expand...
Addressed in post 11.
 
Nihilo

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I caught hell in another thread for answering in this way, but I maintain that it's simply comparing nouns. "God" the word is a noun, and "time" the word is another noun. If "God" is limited by or subject to "time," then "time" is God.
 
User Name

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Nihilo said:
I caught hell in another thread for answering in this way, but I maintain that it's simply comparing nouns. "God" the word is a noun, and "time" the word is another noun. If "God" is limited by or subject to "time," then "time" is God.
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Time is finite; it has a beginning. This is confirmed by Einstein’s general relativity which, depending on boundary conditions, yields a beginning to the universe, linking time to space and matter. God is beyond time; He did not come into existence at some point within time. Instead, He claims that, rather than having a beginning, He is the Beginning and the End (Revelation 22:13). God is the source of everything, and He created time. Time is not absolute; God is absolute. When someone asks where God came from or who created Him, they are assuming time is absolute and God isn’t—but this isn’t the God of the Bible. God created time. From the Bible we learn that time had a beginning (Genesis 1)—that it was started by God, thus God is not bound by time.

The misconception lies with the view of time. Either time is infinite and God is bound by it, or God created time and time is not infinite. When someone says that God is bound by time, they are saying that God is bound inside of what He created. This is a fallacy. Recall that God created everything physical—including time—because there was a beginning (Genesis 1:1). God had no beginning, and thus does not have a cause.

-- https://answersingenesis.org/who-is-god/is-god-bound-by-time/
 
patrick jane

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User Name said:
Time is finite; it has a beginning. This is confirmed by Einstein’s general relativity which, depending on boundary conditions, yields a beginning to the universe, linking time to space and matter. God is beyond time; He did not come into existence at some point within time. Instead, He claims that, rather than having a beginning, He is the Beginning and the End (Revelation 22:13). God is the source of everything, and He created time. Time is not absolute; God is absolute. When someone asks where God came from or who created Him, they are assuming time is absolute and God isn’t—but this isn’t the God of the Bible. God created time. From the Bible we learn that time had a beginning (Genesis 1)—that it was started by God, thus God is not bound by time.

The misconception lies with the view of time. Either time is infinite and God is bound by it, or God created time and time is not infinite. When someone says that God is bound by time, they are saying that God is bound inside of what He created. This is a fallacy. Recall that God created everything physical—including time—because there was a beginning (Genesis 1:1). God had no beginning, and thus does not have a cause.

-- https://answersingenesis.org/who-is-god/is-god-bound-by-time/
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Revelation 1:8 - I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Isaiah 43:10 - “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,“and my servant whom I have chosen,
that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor shall there be any after me
 
Tambora

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glorydaz said:
I think it's because time is, too often, seen as linear....which seems to demand a beginning.
Click to expand...
This is how I vision it.

It is linear in that it only goes two ways - past and future.
The line is infinite both ways (doesn't have an end either way).


:Clete:
_____________________________________________________________​


The line is time and that is you going through life and your moments/segments of time.
The line (time) is infinite, and doesn't 'move' with you.
So while your moments in that line (time) have a beginning and end, because you were born and died, the line remains infinite and has several other lives on it both before (the past) and after (the future) of your segment of the infinite line.
 
Lon

Lon

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patrick jane said:
That suggests time didn't begin until creation. John 17:5 KJV - And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
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It would have to be translated literally: The word is Chronos (time) ionios (before). Thus, "before time..."
Or figuratively, thought it meant: "...before the time the world (cosmos, not used in this verse) was formed (not used), there was a time..."

To me, figurative looks like liberty with the text unless the translators of the KJV were thinking time began when the world began, but that also would revert back to a literal meaning.
 
patrick jane

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Tambora said:
This is how I vision it.

It is linear in that it only goes two ways - past and future.
The line is infinite both ways (doesn't have an end either way).


:Clete:
_____________________________________________________________​


The line is time and that is you going through life and your moments/segments of time.
The line (time) is infinite, and doesn't 'move' with you.
So while your moments in that line (time) have a beginning and end, because you were born and died, the line remains infinite and has several other lives on it both before (the past) and after (the future) of your segment of the infinite line.
Click to expand...
Doesn't that make God bound by time in some way? If time is infinite in the past and future, that makes God AND time both infinite.
 
patrick jane

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Lon said:
It would have to be translated literally: The word is Chronos (time) ionios (before). Thus, "before time..."
Or figuratively, thought it meant: "...before the time the world (cosmos, not used in this verse) was formed (not used), there was a time..."

To me, figurative looks like liberty with the text unless the translators of the KJV were thinking time began when the world began, but that also would revert back to a literal meaning.
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2 Timothy 1:9 NIV - [FONT=&quot]He has saved[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot] us and called[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot] us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot] but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,[/FONT]
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

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Tambora said:
This is how I vision it.

It is linear in that it only goes two ways - past and future.
The line is infinite both ways (doesn't have an end either way).


:Clete:
_____________________________________________________________​


The line is time and that is you going through life and your moments/segments of time.
The line (time) is infinite, and doesn't 'move' with you.
So while your moments in that line (time) have a beginning and end, because you were born and died, the line remains infinite and has several other lives on it both before (the past) and after (the future) of your segment of the infinite line.
Click to expand...

Show off....with your graphics. ;)

I just think of the way everything is cyclical or circular in the Bible. Seasons, plantings and harvests, the planets and luminaries, and the rise and fall of nations. Even the "paths of righteousness" is not a linear path, but a circular path. The word used in Hebrew, as I recall, is the same used for oxen going around and around the grist mill wearing a path by repetition. It's the word "rut". A "rut" is a good thing when speaking of the paths of righteousness...a well worn road. Around and around time goes.

With God at the center of all creation, as things revolve around him, it would be infinite.



PS. I'm just tossing out ideas here...in case anyone gets the idea I'm preaching some Calvinist Doctrine (like Limited Atonement).
 
steko

steko

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patrick jane said:
2 Timothy 1:9 NIV - [FONT=&quot]He has saved[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot] us and called[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot] us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot] but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,[/FONT]
Click to expand...

Was there a moment before the grace was given before the beginning of time or was the grace being given forever without sequence before the beginning of time?
 
patrick jane

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steko said:
Was there a moment before the grace was given before the beginning of time or was the grace being given forever without sequence before the beginning of time?
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Good question, I don't know. Are you saying grace is something God only came up with 2,000 or 6,000 years ago?
 
steko

steko

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patrick jane said:
Good question, I don't know. Are you saying grace is something God only came up with 2,000 or 6,000 years ago?
Click to expand...

I'm not affirming anything at this point in time, just asking a logical question.

I've held the settled view in the past, relying on the arguments supplied by the leading proponents of that view.
I've studied the arguments against neo-theism and was satisfied, however since coming to this forum and being willing to consider other views, I am taking a neutral view, presently.
 
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