ECT Time & Anthropomorphism with GOD

Derf

Well-known member
Neither do angels.

I don't know that that is the case, but I think it is. Do you have a reference for it?

Anyway, angels are a special, in between, case. Something that is not eternal, nor affected by entropy, as far as we know. Do you think they experience time more like God or more like us?
 

patrick jane

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I think we have much less conception of what it means to be "outside of time" than we do to be "inside time". To use the phrase "outside of time" might be nonsense, not only in fact, but also in conception. When we say "all things are simultaneous" it presupposes the definition of time as "sequence", and "outside of time" as "no sequence". Are these definitions correct?

My preference on the issue of past and future is to see whether anything can be changed. If nothing can be changed in the past, that makes sense, and God can actually tell us what happened in the past (including before our time)--there's no fear that God will go change the past to make the bible's historical passages inaccurate. Plus, it suggests that God has to fix His mistakes in the past, based on what He learns in the future.

If the future cannot be changed, then it (and the present and the past) are merely a movie, previously recorded and just being viewed. This includes all actions, words and deeds of everybody--including God. Since God Has been involved from before the movie was made, it doesn't restrict His free will, but it removes ours, since the movie was recorded before we existed. And if He is the only entity that was around when the movie was recorded, He is the author of all that is in it, and the only audience.

If the future can be changed, then there isn't something that already exists called "the future", because if it is ever "changed", then it must not have been the true future, but a false one. If God somehow uses this "false future" to decide what the "real future" will be, then God's knowledge is faulty--what He believes to be the future is a false future. (This is the counterfactual argument--God can't "know" something that isn't really true. If He knew you were going to get hit by a car tomorrow, and prevented it, then He didn't really know you were going to get hit by the car.)
Good post. If God doesn't know the future then how could prophecies be fulfilled, how could Revelation be written etc.? Are only certain parts of the future known by God?
 

Derf

Well-known member
Good post. If God doesn't know the future then how could prophecies be fulfilled, how could Revelation be written etc.? Are only certain parts of the future known by God?

God could know a future that doesn't yet exist in multiple ways.
1. He causes it to happen. (1st order causation)
2. He knows the minds/thoughts of those that are going to cause it to happen. (2nd order causation)
3. He knows the causes that will direct the minds of those that are going to cause it to happen. (3rd order causation)
4. He brings about the events that result in the causes that will direct the minds of those that are going to cause it to happen (4th order causation).

I think you see where that list is going. Some of these restrict or eliminate free will, if applied universally, so I think it is a combination of all three, but again not universally applied--only applied to the extent that the proper results are attained-- results that fulfill the text and the purpose behind the text (why it was written).

There's another possibility that Open Theism might still need to consider--that Revelation is a contingent prophecy--i.e., it might not happen if there is worldwide repentance. This doesn't seem very likely to me, but has to be allowed for in Open Theism, I think. It is hard for me to read Revelation that way...

Another option is that the timing might not be settled, but the events are assured by one of the mechanisms given above.
 

Tambora

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. Plus, it suggests that God has to fix His mistakes in the past, based on what He learns in the future.

Hi and how Rev 20:10 be explained FOR EVER and EVER / AION ??


When all are thrown into the Lake of Fire , does time STOP ??

I say NO !!

If you say YES , THEN FOR EVER and EVER does not mean any thing !!

dan p

I'm going to give a bible narrative that may answer both these statements about ' for ever and ever" and GOD fixing something He declared earlier.

Eli was a high priest, a descendant of Arron of the Levitical Priesthood.
Eli was a mentor to the prophet Samuel from his childhood.

GOD speaking to Eli.

1 Samuel 2:30 KJV
(30) Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.​

But that is not what happened.
Eli was slack with his sons (who were priests) and their wickedness.
So GOD rescinded His promise that his house should walk before GOD forever.
And in the time of David and Solomon, Eli's house (descendants) were forbidden to serve the Lord as priests.

1 Kings 2:27​
(27) So Solomon thrust out Abiathar from being priest unto the LORD; that he might fulfil the word of the LORD, which he spake concerning the house of Eli in Shiloh.​




So we see that GOD did fix, correct, changed what He had previously intended to do.
And that forever did not mean forever in the sense of always, perpetual, continuing.
In this situation forever changed to not forever.
GOD changed His mind.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Decree of God Explained

Decree of God Explained

God could know a future that doesn't yet exist in multiple ways.
1. He causes it to happen. (1st order causation)
2. He knows the minds/thoughts of those that are going to cause it to happen. (2nd order causation)
3. He knows the causes that will direct the minds of those that are going to cause it to happen. (3rd order causation)
4. He brings about the events that result in the causes that will direct the minds of those that are going to cause it to happen (4th order causation).

I think it is important to define carefully what we mean by the “decree of God” as the topic will come up often in discussions of Calvinism.

The decree of God is His
1. eternal;
2. unchangeable;
3. holy;
4. wise; and
5. sovereign purpose.

The decree of God comprehends equally vividly all things
1. that ever were; or
2. will be.

These things are comprehended in their
1. causes;
2. conditions;
3. successions; and
4. relations.

The decree of God also determines the certain future existence of all things.

The many contents of God’s single eternal purpose are, because we are finite and God is infinite, limited by our faculties to comprehend fully, hence when we speak of the decree of God, we conceive of the decree in partial aspects and/or logical relations, and thusly we, as finite creatures, speak of the decreess of God. So while we may write or speak about the “decrees” of God, we should always remember that there is but one decree.

Also, we should be on the same page with respect to God’s foreknowledge and God’s foreordination.

Foreknowledge is an act of God, infinitely intelligent, knowing from eternity, without change, the certain future existence of all events of every type that ever will come to pass.

Foreordination is an act of the will (the mind choosing) of God, who is infinitely intelligent, foreknowing, benevolent, and righteous. Foreordination is an act of God from eternity determining the certain future existence of all events of every type that will come to pass. Foreknowledge recognizes the certain future existence of events, while foreordination makes them certainly future.

In summary:
1. God's decrees are eternal. Acts 15:18; Eph. 1:4; 3:11; 1 Pet. 1:20; 2 Thess. 2:13; 2 Tim. 1:9; 1 Cor. 2:7.

2. They are immutable. Ps. 33:11; Isa. 46:9. See also here.

3. They comprehend all events.
(1) The Scriptures assert this of the whole system in general embraced in the divine decrees. Dan. 4:34, 35; Acts 17:26; Eph 1:11.
(2) They affirm the same of fortuitous events. Prov. 16:33; Matt. 10:29, 30.
(3) Also of the free actions of men. Eph. 2:10, 11; Phil. 2:13.
(4) Even the wicked actions of men. Acts 2:23; 4:27, 28; 13:29; 1 Pet. 2:8; Jude 4; Rev. 17:17. As to the history of Joseph, compare Gen. 37:28, with Gen. 45:7, 8, and Gen. 50:20. See also Ps. 17:13, 14; Isa. 10:5, 15.

4. The decrees of God are not conditional. Ps. 33:11; Prov. 19:21; Isa. 14:24, 27; 46:10; Rom. 9:11.

5. They are sovereign. Isa. 40:13, 14; Dan. 4:35; Matt. 11:25, 26; Rom. 9:11, 15-18; Eph. 1:5, 11.

6. They include the means. Eph. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13; 1 Pet. 1:2.

7. They determine the free actions of men. Acts 4:27, 28; Eph. 2:10.

8. God himself works in his people that faith and obedience which are called the conditions of salvation. Eph. 2:8; Phil. 2:13; 2 Tim. 2:25.

9. The decree renders the event certain, yet per the inclusions above. Matt. 16:21; Luke 18:31-33; 24:46; Acts 2:23; 13:29; 1 Cor. 11:19.

10. While God has decreed the free acts of men, the actors have been none the less responsible. Gen. 50:20; Acts 2:23; 3:18; 4:27, 28.

In another thread it was asked whether or not his views on the matter are in accordance with “traditional Calvinism”. I offer the following six observations as the traditional Calvinistic views on the matter of events so decreed by God.

1. Since God has decreed them and, as I have defined above, thusly made them certain to occur in the future, God foreknows all events. In other words, God foreknows because he has decreed.

2. The decree of God relates equally to all events of every type that will occur. This includes free actions of moral agents, the actions of necessary agents, whether these actions be morally right or sinful.

3. That said, and what is often abused by those that are not well-informed about Calvinistic doctrine, things have been eternally decreed by God under certain aspects.

- God has decreed some things Himself immediately. For example, God’s act to create the universe.

- God has decreed to do make certain some things through the action of secondary causes, causes which act under laws of necessity, such as physical aspect of nature, e.g., planetary motion.

- God has decreed to move or to actively permit free moral agents to act in the exercise of their free moral agency. Nevertheless, despite these distinctions between these classes of events, they are all rendered certain by the decree of God.

4. While God has decreed all events, it is vitally important to note that while God’s decree includes the ends, His decree also encompasses the means, the causes as well as the effects, the conditions as well as the instrumentalities, for all events that will depend upon the same.

5. While the decree of God determines the certainty of future events, the decree of God neither directly effects or causes no event. (Please read that statement one more time!) But…hang on now…in every case the decree of God provides that these events are rendered certain by causes that are acting in such a manner that is perfectly consistent with the nature of these events in question.

In other words, when considering every free act of a moral agent, God’s decree provides at once, that:

1. the agent is a free agent;
2. the agent’s antecedents and every antecedent of the action in question be what they are;
3. the present conditions of the action be what they are;
4. the action by the agent be perfectly spontaneous (i.e., freedom of spontaneity) on the part of the agent; and
5. it shall be certainly future.

6. The purposes of God that relate to every kind of event constitute one single, comprehensive intention by God’s comprehending all events. Thus God comprehends the free events as free events, the necessary events as necessary events, all together, including all their causes, their relations, their conditions. This comprehension is one, indivisible system of things, every link of which is essential to the vital integrity of the whole.

AMR
 
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Tambora

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None of this was because God was unable to know the future.
Conflicting futures.
One future says forever.
One future says not forever.
Something changed that future from forever to not forever.
That future did not remain as GOD first stated it.
 

Evil.Eye.*{@}*

New member
If God has to "Traverse" Infinity to step into the "temporal"... it is clear that He is "outside" of time.

However...

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit can "Bridge" this situation in a way that further bolsters Open Theism's support that God honers Free Will and sincere development of time.

I have written extensively on this and to be precise... if open theism wants to be taken seriously... it needs to acknowledge that God is beyond everything... including time.

In a debate... Knight asked if it is possible for God to "choose" to limit His foreknowledge, and the individual He was debating with refused to answer... (I'm pretty sure it was Knight that asked that... in the debate I was reading)... My point is that... people actually limit God by suggesting He can't be fully Omniscient and Limited in foreknowledge... thus throwing the sovereignty ball right back in their court. For a person to say "No".. that's not possible... they have just limited God! Ta Da.... Check Mate! I was rather upset that Knights opponent dodged the question, as I believe it is the correct question to ask.

Linear Omniscience is what classical Theism of the Augustine flavor has assumed... but that is a sham! God doesn't just know a linear chain of events and is bound to them! That is to say that God Himself is a mindless puppet of His own device, and scripture doesn't tell us this at ALL!

God changes approach all throughout scripture in a way that shows His relationship to us is genuine and unfolding in a Temporal fashion!

The Father is the A-Temporal agent.

The Son and or Holy Spirit can work in unity with the Father to bridge the temporal divide in a fashion that fosters sincere relationship and free will!

If Open Theism would grasp this... it would be leveraging the very fact that God can act in three scriptural fashions, while being fully one to accomplish a task!

Would any theist that is a TriUnitarian challenge that? Only if they want to eradicate that the Son, Father and Holy Spirit worked together to fulfill the plan of salvation!
[MENTION=17606]Derf[/MENTION] ... I think you may be the one to evaluate this... and if you disagree... so be it... but if you grasp what I am attempting to convey...

I have many links to draw from that I have worked up.
 
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Derf

Well-known member
I'm going to give a bible narrative that may answer both these statements about ' for ever and ever" and GOD fixing something He declared earlier.

Eli was a high priest, a descendant of Arron of the Levitical Priesthood.
Eli was a mentor to the prophet Samuel from his childhood.

GOD speaking to Eli.

1 Samuel 2:30 KJV
(30) Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.​

But that is not what happened.
Eli was slack with his sons (who were priests) and their wickedness.
So GOD rescinded His promise that his house should walk before GOD forever.
And in the time of David and Solomon, Eli's house (descendants) were forbidden to serve the Lord as priests.

1 Kings 2:27​
(27) So Solomon thrust out Abiathar from being priest unto the LORD; that he might fulfil the word of the LORD, which he spake concerning the house of Eli in Shiloh.​




So we see that GOD did fix, correct, changed what He had previously intended to do.
And that forever did not mean forever in the sense of always, perpetual, continuing.
In this situation forever changed to not forever.
GOD changed His mind.

But He didn't do anything "in the past". What He did, He did in the present. The past, including the verses of scripture that Moses wrote, were not somehow struck from the record, but God gave reason why He was doing something different now that seemed to contradict what He did/said before. The "before" didn't change based on the "after", only the "after" changed.
 

Derf

Well-known member
I think it is important to define carefully what we mean by the “decree of God” as the topic will come up often in discussions of Calvinism.

The decree of God is His
1. eternal;
2. unchangeable;
3. holy;
4. wise; and
5. sovereign purpose.

The decree of God comprehends equally vividly all things
1. that ever were; or
2. will be.

These things are comprehended in their
1. causes;
2. conditions;
3. successions; and
4. relations.

The decree of God also determines the certain future existence of all things.

The many contents of God’s single eternal purpose are, because we are finite and God is infinite, limited by our faculties to comprehend fully, hence when we speak of the decree of God, we conceive of the decree in partial aspects and/or logical relations, and thusly we, as finite creatures, speak of the decreess of God. So while we may write or speak about the “decrees” of God, we should always remember that there is but one decree.

Also, we should be on the same page with respect to God’s foreknowledge and God’s foreordination.

Foreknowledge is an act of God, infinitely intelligent, knowing from eternity, without change, the certain future existence of all events of every type that ever will come to pass.

Foreordination is an act of the will (the mind choosing) of God, who is infinitely intelligent, foreknowing, benevolent, and righteous. Foreordination is an act of God from eternity determining the certain future existence of all events of every type that will come to pass. Foreknowledge recognizes the certain future existence of events, while foreordination makes them certainly future.

In summary:
1. God's decrees are eternal. Acts 15:18; Eph. 1:4; 3:11; 1 Pet. 1:20; 2 Thess. 2:13; 2 Tim. 1:9; 1 Cor. 2:7.

2. They are immutable. Ps. 33:11; Isa. 46:9.

3. They comprehend all events.
(1) The Scriptures assert this of the whole system in general embraced in the divine decrees. Dan. 4:34, 35; Acts 17:26; Eph 1:11.
(2) They affirm the same of fortuitous events. Prov. 16:33; Matt. 10:29, 30.
(3) Also of the free actions of men. Eph. 2:10, 11; Phil. 2:13.
(4) Even the wicked actions of men. Acts 2:23; 4:27, 28; 13:29; 1 Pet. 2:8; Jude 4; Rev. 17:17. As to the history of Joseph, compare Gen. 37:28, with Gen. 45:7, 8, and Gen. 50:20. See also Ps. 17:13, 14; Isa. 10:5, 15.

4. The decrees of God are not conditional. Ps. 33:11; Prov. 19:21; Isa. 14:24, 27; 46:10; Rom. 9:11.

5. They are sovereign. Isa. 40:13, 14; Dan. 4:35; Matt. 11:25, 26; Rom. 9:11, 15-18; Eph. 1:5, 11.

6. They include the means. Eph. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13; 1 Pet. 1:2.

7. They determine the free actions of men. Acts 4:27, 28; Eph. 2:10.

8. God himself works in his people that faith and obedience which are called the conditions of salvation. Eph. 2:8; Phil. 2:13; 2 Tim. 2:25.

9. The decree renders the event certain, yet per the inclusions above. Matt. 16:21; Luke 18:31-33; 24:46; Acts 2:23; 13:29; 1 Cor. 11:19.

10. While God has decreed the free acts of men, the actors have been none the less responsible. Gen. 50:20; Acts 2:23; 3:18; 4:27, 28.

In another thread it was asked whether or not his views on the matter are in accordance with “traditional Calvinism”. I offer the following six observations as the traditional Calvinistic views on the matter of events so decreed by God.

1. Since God has decreed them and, as I have defined above, thusly made them certain to occur in the future, God foreknows all events. In other words, God foreknows because he has decreed.

2. The decree of God relates equally to all events of every type that will occur. This includes free actions of moral agents, the actions of necessary agents, whether these actions be morally right or sinful.

3. That said, and what is often abused by those that are not well-informed about Calvinistic doctrine, things have been eternally decreed by God under certain aspects.

- God has decreed some things Himself immediately. For example, God’s act to create the universe.

- God has decreed to do make certain some things through the action of secondary causes, causes which act under laws of necessity, such as physical aspect of nature, e.g., planetary motion.

- God has decreed to move or to actively permit free moral agents to act in the exercise of their free moral agency. Nevertheless, despite these distinctions between these classes of events, they are all rendered certain by the decree of God.

4. While God has decreed all events, it is vitally important to note that while God’s decree includes the ends, His decree also encompasses the means, the causes as well as the effects, the conditions as well as the instrumentalities, for all events that will depend upon the same.

5. While the decree of God determines the certainty of future events, the decree of God neither directly effects or causes no event. (Please read that statement one more time!) But…hang on now…in every case the decree of God provides that these events are rendered certain by causes that are acting in such a manner that is perfectly consistent with the nature of these events in question.

In other words, when considering every free act of a moral agent, God’s decree provides at once, that:

1. the agent is a free agent;
2. the agent’s antecedents and every antecedent of the action in question be what they are;
3. the present conditions of the action be what they are;
4. the action by the agent be perfectly spontaneous (i.e., freedom of spontaneity) on the part of the agent; and
5. it shall be certainly future.

6. The purposes of God that relate to every kind of event constitute one single, comprehensive intention by God’s comprehending all events. Thus God comprehends the free events as free events, the necessary events as necessary events, all together, including all their causes, their relations, their conditions. This comprehension is one, indivisible system of things, every link of which is essential to the vital integrity of the whole.

AMR

Just so you understand...I never mentioned Calvinism in my post, nor was I replying to a post mentioning Calvinism.

I guess I have a problem with God "comprehending" something that doesn't exist. He might fully "comprehend" something He is going to make, and that's fine, but "comprehending" something He is going to make that is able to "create" in a small way can only mean that God can conceive of the possibilities--unless He causes the results to always be what He imagined. And thus man is NOT made in the image of God, imo.

You admit that God doesn't "foreknow" based on the events that are to happen, but on the events that He ensures happens. Thus God does them (in either #1 or #4 of my list).

You can't say God doesn't use His knowledge of the future to make sure things happen as He wants, and then turn around and say He does it by knowing what His creations will do because He made them do it--at least not without making God the author of everything they do.

There are two ways to know what a "free" creature will do prior to making it.
1. Force (thus it's not free)
2. the future is already determined and you look at it somehow (thus anything that was "made" after the future was determined is not free to do otherwise--it is created to carry out the "movie" script).

Even if God knows that man will sin "of his own accord", He must know it based on the possibilities, or He forces him to do it. (I think we both reject the future "movie" scenario.)

Calling it a "decree" doesn't help the situation, because a decree doesn't carry any weight unless it is somehow enforced. Imagine God saying "I decree that Derf murder a man in cold blood tomorrow at 2 pm." God might know that it is going to happen because He knows Derf inside and out. But imagine God saying 2000 years ago, "I decree that Derf will exist and will murder a man in cold blood on Dec 15, 2017." God doesn't based His knowledge of Derf on a real knowledge of Derf--you've said so yourself. So He must create a Derf to be the kind of Derf that would do that, and then arrange things so that it happens.

Let's go back a little further, since it wouldn't be hard for God to know human nature well enough that He could find the right combination of mom and dad and circumstances that cause Derf to be and cause him to be a murderer, though you start to wonder at this point why would God want to create something like this kind of Derf. Instead, let's go back to a time before man was made, and definitely before man fell in the garden. Then, as God contemplates (can He do that outside of time?) about the creation of the world, he makes a statement, "6021 years (Bishop Ussher's timing) after I make the earth and mankind in a very good way, a guy named Derf will murder a man in cold blood." Remember, there's no man named Derf to comprehend, there's no mom and dad of Derf to comprehend, there's no race of man to comprehend, there's no sin nature for God to comprehend, there are no circumstances to comprehend that will make anyone a murderer except the race of man, the moms and dads, and the circumstances (I left out the sin nature on purpose) God is about to create to ensure a Derf exists and will murder someone. There's nothing to rely on except what is in God's mind--what is His plan. And His plan has Derf murdering a man without Derf being able to stop himself.

So who is the author of that murderous thought? Derf or God? (Hint, Derf doesn't exist yet!)
 

Derf

Well-known member
If God has to "Traverse" Infinity to step into the "temporal"... it is clear that He is "outside" of time.

However...

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit can "Bridge" this situation in a way that further bolsters Open Theism's support that God honers Free Will and sincere development of time.

I have written extensively on this and to be precise... if open theism wants to be taken seriously... it needs to acknowledge that God is beyond everything... including time.

In a debate... Knight asked if it is possible for God to "choose" to limit His foreknowledge, and the individual He was debating with refused to answer... (I'm pretty sure it was Knight that asked that... in the debate I was reading)... My point is that... people actually limit God by suggesting He can't be fully Omniscient and Limited in foreknowledge... thus throwing the sovereignty ball right back in their court. For a person to say "No".. that's not possible... they have just limited God! Ta Da.... Check Mate! I was rather upset that Knights opponent dodged the question, as I believe it is the correct question to ask.

Linear Omniscience is what classical Theism of the Augustine flavor has assumed... but that is a sham! God doesn't just know a linear chain of events and is bound to them! That is to say that God Himself is a mindless puppet of His own device, and scripture doesn't tell us this at ALL!

God changes approach all throughout scripture in a way that shows His relationship to us is genuine and unfolding in a Temporal fashion!

The Father is the A-Temporal agent.

The Son and or Holy Spirit can work in unity with the Father to bridge the temporal divide in a fashion that fosters sincere relationship and free will!

If Open Theism would grasp this... it would be leveraging the very fact that God can act in three scriptural fashions, while being fully one to accomplish a task!

Would any theist that is a TriUnitarian challenge that? Only if they want to eradicate that the Son, Father and Holy Spirit worked together to fulfill the plan of salvation!
[MENTION=17606]Derf[/MENTION] ... I think you may be the one to evaluate this... and if you disagree... so be it... but if you grasp what I am attempting to convey...

I have many links to draw from that I have worked up.

You sure have thrown a bunch of terms in that muddy the waters.

What does it mean for God to "traverse infinity"?
What does it mean that God is "beyond time"?
Why are we having to "Bridge this situation"?
How does the Triunity of God change the discussion?
What is "Linear Omniscience", and what is the alternative?

I can neither agree nor disagree with you if I don't understand what you are saying.
 

Tambora

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But He didn't do anything "in the past". What He did, He did in the present. The past, including the verses of scripture that Moses wrote, were not somehow struck from the record, but God gave reason why He was doing something different now that seemed to contradict what He did/said before. The "before" didn't change based on the "after", only the "after" changed.
Good point.
Although I might take an issue with seemed to contradict'.
Is not a contradiction something that is inconsistent with another, one thing opposing another?
Isn't 'forever' inconsistent with 'not forever' ?
I mean IF GOD had exhaustive foreknowledge of the entire future from creation, then He would have known beforehand that the house of Eli would not end up being forever.
And yet He tells Eli it will be forever, which would be inconsistent with His supposed exhaustive foreknowledge.
 

Stripe

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TIME
Is timelessness biblical?
Does scripture support time as being created and had a beginning?

For this thread, my position is that time is not created but has always been and always will be.
Perhaps an opening question could be ..... Would there be any purpose at all that would make it necessary for GOD to have the capability to back into the past or to go into the future?


Anthropomorphism
A form of Personification, but slightly different.
Anthropomorphism is the art of placing human characteristics onto non-human objects or beings.
For this study it is the art of placing human characteristics on GOD in scripture --- GOD is said to have eyes, arms, hands, hair, etc.

The argument sometimes arises that this is a means GOD uses in scripture to "dumb down" what is really happening so that humans can better understand it by having a visual imagery of things we are accustomed to seeing.
Along with this argument is that GOD cannot have arms, eyes, hair, etc., so even though He is spoken of with those terms, we are not to REALLY think of Him as having these characteristics.
They don't like the idea of thinking of GOD in any form at all, much less as similar to man.

For this thread, my position is that being similar to man IS how we are to envision GOD.
And my question would be "Why shouldn't we envision GOD as similar to a man" if that is the very imagery He provides us with?






*** I have included both these subjects in the same thread because in some theology groups these are used often and have some overlap to express what GOD is and how He operates, although they can also be talked about in this thread separately.
It is to keep another thread from going down an off-topic rabbit hole. ***


Chose your poison and go with it!
Definition of time: The distance between events.
One of the first thoughts that popped into my head was that time didn't exist until the moment the universe was created. I can't begin to explain what it means to be before time existed.
If there were no events before the universe was created, time wouldn't have any meaning.
 

Tambora

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Thought Question


On the 7th day GOD rested.
Sooooooooooo .......
Was He resting within time within creation, or resting outside of time outside of creation?

:juggle:
 

patrick jane

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Thought Question


On the 7th day GOD rested.
Sooooooooooo .......
Was He resting within time within creation, or resting outside of time outside of creation?

:juggle:
:chuckle: Does "resting" mean he laid down or took a nap or relaxed, like we might do? Or does it mean He rested from His work as in, He was finished creating? Since I'm leaning towards time beginning at creation and God resting is part of the creation, I'd say within time within creation.
 
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