This is not about being Jewish or Jewish things. It is about this:
Galatians 3:22 NASB - 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Thoughts about why identify as Jewish.
- Thread starter Jacob
- Start date
Galatians 3:22 NASB - 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
You problem is you won't let anyone agree with you. :chuckle:
heir
TOL Subscriber
LOL
He is a walking contradiction. He can't see the difference between anything and when I show his error, he comes out with an amen. He doesn't know what he's talking about.
1 Timothy 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
Not to get personal but ... I'm guessing you're single, right?
You are right about what is found in 1 Timothy 1:7.
A friend of mine says something similar as to how he arrived at his understanding of what he holds to.
Problem is, his is his conclusions of what he was reading, read by him into what he was reading.
In your above example, you appear to have committed the same error.
You write as the basis for your understanding that "either my life or the teaching I was receiving did not match what I was reading when I read the Bible. For example, Jesus did not come to abolish the Law."
You might consider that there is a world of difference between reading one's own, first impression conclusions into what one is reading, in contrast to actually reading a thing as it was meant to be understood.
In my friend's case, I'll ask him for example, what he has understood from some passage he has just quoted.
Often, he answers me with what he obviously concluded the passage was talking about when he first read the passage.
He hasn't a clue as to how to dig out the intended sense of a passage out of a passage itself.
I often say to him 'just because a person believes a thing, doesn't mean it is true, or sound.'
Unfortunately, that then sets off his ego and he begins to rationalize away this, that, or the other.
That's the case with a lot of beliefs held by people in the world in general - we believe a thing, and just because we believe it, we then conclude it is therefore true.
Put a whole bunch of people like that together and you end up with a whole lot of people believing, say, as in Columbus' day "come on, everyone knows the world is flat!"
Anyway, true, Jesus did say He did not come to abolish the Law in Matthew 5:17.
But there is what He meant by that, as determined by overall scope, context, and so on.
There is that, that has to be carefully considered.
And, there is also this from Christ, through Paul, in Ephesians 2:
15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Thus, while your faith in what you have concluded a passage like Matthew 5:17 was talking about; while your faith in that might be admirable, the fact remains that if you have been wrong, it will have profited you nothing, and that is something you must consider.
For as that seemingly odd, one Apostle too many to Israel's already established Twelve wrote in 1 Corinthians 3:
10. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
The foundation - Christ - is the same - both for Israel and for the Body.
But Paul as a Master Builder, was given different instructions.
Your responsibility is to look into that whether or not you agree with it.
For as Paul also wrote in this same chapter:
12. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13. Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17. If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18. Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
There is your problem, you have read your wisdom into the passages - you have made sense of them as best as you knew how, but it was, and still is, your wisdom.
Fact is, there are Bible study principles involved.
The best to you int this...
Matthew 5:17-18 KJV -
I concluded by reading the Bible that it is possible to be a proselyte to Judaism or Israel. But that doesn't mean that being a proselyte will save anyone. But this is different than just realizing the Law condemns as God designed it to. The Law is good. It points out our sin and holds us responsible for it. This is what it means to be guilty or true guilt.
A person needs to let God teach them. God has used different passages to show me different things at different times.
For example, I can use the passage in Ephesians, right or wrong, to say the Law has been abolished. But then in 1 Timothy chapter 1 we find that the Law is or can be used in evangelism.
After a person is saved, what are they to obey? We can say God's commands. Not everyone knows what God's commands are. Should any of God's commands ever be taught?
Are you certain of what Ephesians 2:15 says, if anything, in regard to this?
I concluded by reading the Bible that it is possible to be a proselyte to Judaism or Israel. But that doesn't mean that being a proselyte will save anyone. But this is different than just realizing the Law condemns as God designed it to. The Law is good. It points out our sin and holds us responsible for it. This is what it means to be guilty or true guilt.
A person needs to let God teach them. God has used different passages to show me different things at different times.
For example, I can use the passage in Ephesians, right or wrong, to say the Law has been abolished. But then in 1 Timothy chapter 1 we find that the Law is or can be used in evangelism.
After a person is saved, what are they to obey? We can say God's commands. Not everyone knows what God's commands are. Should any of God's commands ever be taught?
Respectfully, yours is your reasoning read by you into the passages.
You write that you "concluded by reading the Bible ___."
That is just your mind on those things.
At the same time, some of it does appear to be based on truth to some degree and as a result, we will agree on those parts of it that are.
Like your conclusion that the Law is good and is profitable in Evangelism.
But then you go south with that. For the fact of the matter is, that this side of the instructions given by Christ through the Apostle Paul, "the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners," etc. 1 Tim. 1:9.
Fact of the matter is, that this side of His "having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;" Eph. 2:15 - in other words, by the sacrifice of Himself, verse 13, the reason "sin shall not have dominion over you" will not be due to keeping the Law, rather "sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace" Rom. 6:14.
In short, if you have trusted this here - 1 Corinthians 15's:
1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
If you have trusted that (I don't know, as I don't know if you have or have not) then this here applies to you - 2 Corinthians 5's:
21. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
If you have trusted that (hopefully you will say you have) then your instruction is not the Law, as it is 'not for a righteous man," rather, Grace is now your teacher.
How do I know? Titus 2:
11. For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12. Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13. Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14. Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
You see that, He gave Himself that by that He might redeem you that believe from all iniquity.
That is the Grace of God that hath appeared unto all men - note Eph. 2 on this Grace in Christ Jesus:
1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
In other words, He "gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Now here is the key - the being zealous of good works is not based on the Law for we "are no longer under a schoolmaster," Gal. 3:25.
Rather, the zealousness, the motivation is Grace motivation - note Titus 2 again:
11. For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12. Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13. Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14. Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
And this is a theme throughout Romans thru Philemon, this Grace Motivation, this Grace Attitude or Gratitude that God's goodness in His kindness and His Grace in His Son toward us when we least deserved it, is mean to motivate good works in us.
Thus, Galatians 5's:
1. Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
You see that - it is faith empowered into action (good works) within our inward man by the love of Christ as we contemplate His sacrifice.
Neither a work, or no work at all, can bring the Believer closer to God's absolute and complete acceptance before Him than a Beleiever already is - in - His - Son!
I mean look at this - look at it - Galatians 3:
1. O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2. This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3. Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Galatians 2:
19. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20. I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
The Law called for putting you to death!
Christ stood up in your stead.
Quit trying to frustrate the grace of God by these Law notions of yours - so you can get to rejoicing for all, and in all this grace wherein you can stand before God, at peace with Him, in His Son, by the Spirit, Romans 5:1, 2.
By the way, thank you for the opportunity to rejoice in all this once more that answering you based on 1 Cor. 15: 1-4 in light of 2 Tm. 2:15 has resulted in, in my inward man
Sincerely
Not getting personal but...I'm guessing you're single and live in your
parents basement? And, have never had a date with a woman? Am I
close?
Your problem is, your problems.
Do you consider yourself to be called as a Jew, even though you're a gentile?
That's because you're strange. You poor soul.
Anybody else notice how Un contradicts himself?
Yeah, he's another Albert Einstein. You are, as well.
Thank you for your post. I believe all that you have posted. Except one thing. I believe we can come to conclusions by reading the Bible. Other than that, all good. I can say however that I do know that I am not justified by keeping the Law.Respectfully, yours is your reasoning read by you into the passages.
You write that you "concluded by reading the Bible ___."
That is just your mind on those things.
At the same time, some of it does appear to be based on truth to some degree and as a result, we will agree on those parts of it that are.
Like your conclusion that the Law is good and is profitable in Evangelism.
But then you go south with that. For the fact of the matter is, that this side of the instructions given by Christ through the Apostle Paul, "the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners," etc. 1 Tim. 1:9.
Fact of the matter is, that this side of His "having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;" Eph. 2:15 - in other words, by the sacrifice of Himself, verse 13, the reason "sin shall not have dominion over you" will not be due to keeping the Law, rather "sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace" Rom. 6:14.
In short, if you have trusted this here - 1 Corinthians 15's:
1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
If you have trusted that (I don't know, as I don't know if you have or have not) then this here applies to you - 2 Corinthians 5's:
21. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
If you have trusted that (hopefully you will say you have) then your instruction is not the Law, as it is 'not for a righteous man," rather, Grace is now your teacher.
How do I know? Titus 2:
11. For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12. Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13. Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14. Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
You see that, He gave Himself that by that He might redeem you that believe from all iniquity.
That is the Grace of God that hath appeared unto all men - note Eph. 2 on this Grace in Christ Jesus:
1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
In other words, He "gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Now here is the key - the being zealous of good works is not based on the Law for we "are no longer under a schoolmaster," Gal. 3:25.
Rather, the zealousness, the motivation is Grace motivation - note Titus 2 again:
11. For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12. Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13. Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14. Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
And this is a theme throughout Romans thru Philemon, this Grace Motivation, this Grace Attitude or Gratitude that God's goodness in His kindness and His Grace in His Son toward us when we least deserved it, is mean to motivate good works in us.
Thus, Galatians 5's:
1. Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
You see that - it is faith empowered into action (good works) within our inward man by the love of Christ as we contemplate His sacrifice.
Neither a work, or no work at all, can bring the Believer closer to God's absolute and complete acceptance before Him than a Beleiever already is - in - His - Son!
I mean look at this - look at it - Galatians 3:
1. O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2. This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3. Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Galatians 2:
19. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20. I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
The Law called for putting you to death!
Christ stood up in your stead.
Quit trying to frustrate the grace of God by these Law notions of yours - so you can get to rejoicing for all, and in all this grace wherein you can stand before God, at peace with Him, in His Son, by the Spirit, Romans 5:1, 2.
By the way, thank you for the opportunity to rejoice in all this once more that answering you based on 1 Cor. 15: 1-4 in light of 2 Tm. 2:15 has resulted in, in my inward man
Sincerely
Here are some verses that may help you to see where I am coming from.
1 Corinthians 9:16-23 NASB - 16 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel. 17 For if I do this voluntarily, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have a stewardship entrusted to me. 18 What then is my reward? That, when I preach the gospel, I may offer the gospel without charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel. 19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
1 Corinthians 7:17-24 NASB - 17 Only, as the Lord has assigned to each one, as God has called each, in this manner let him walk. And so I direct in all the churches. 18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God. 20 Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called. 21 Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it; but if you are able also to become free, rather do that. 22 For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave. 23 You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men. 24 Brethren, each one is to remain with God in that condition in which he was called.
I understand we can be obedient to God because of the grace of God. That is, the unbeliever can want to be obedient to the Law. And the Christian can and should obey God's commands. We set a good example as those who are saved and obey God to the glory of God, for those who have yet to experience God's goodness. The goodness is not in the law-keeping itself. It is in the good that God has us to do that glorifies Him. Good is better than bad, and a good example is important. It is more than being good for the sake of being good or to feel right or think you are right with God. It is not a competition thing. It is about being led of God (it is always God who leads us to do good) that God is glorified and people would repent. It is not saying you are better than someone who is an unbeliever. It is helping them to see that life is better than where they are at. Going to God's Law, and ultimately to Jesus for this, is what we must do.
I discovered at some point in my life that if the standard for how I will be judged is God's Law then I need to know why people tell me not to be obedient to it. We have Jesus who obeyed the Law as the perfect example, not of law-keeping, but of how to live righteously. The Spirit of God helps believers in how to walk out their lives. We can learn from Jesus still, even when people say not to obey the Law or when they rightly point out that as Christians we are not under the Law. Jesus observed and taught the Law.
I am permitted by God to observe the Law. But I don't think I was suppose to need to seek or ask His permission, or anyone else's, to do so. Is that pride or is it hating sin and desiring to do all that God has for me to do?
If the standard is Jesus, and it is (for how we are to live or how we will be judged), how are we to live as Jews and Gentiles?
Was the Law done away with? If so, can it be used in Evangelism? If the Law can be used in Evangelism can it not be used by Christians in daily living?
I was born a Gentile. I am circumcised. The following question may have nothing to do with my having been circumcised.
Can a person choose to be a Jew or Jewish?
A Jew likely would see no reason in choosing to be a Gentile. I would venture to say it is impossible. To live like a Gentile? Maybe.
There are Gentiles who glorify God in the way they live.
If I am a member of the body of Christ (I am) and part of the church (I am) do I need to say if I am a Jew or a Gentile? Maybe a Christian doesn't need to declare if they are a Jew or a Gentile. I would rather be a Jew than a Gentile. Jews know who the one true God is. Gentiles should too.
It only appears to you that you agree with what I posted.
But what you are doing is fusing together things that don't go together and concluding you arrived at this fusion from "reading the Bible."
You do not see that you are fusing together things that do not go together. Others see that that is what you are doing. As a result your contradictions are clear to them.
Fact is, fuse them together how you believe they must be fused together, fact is "ye are NOT under the Law...ye ARE under grace," Rom. 6:14.
Fact is that "the Law entered (was given) that the trangression might abound" Rom. 5:20.
Of course, being that charity "believeth all things" (gives the benefit of the doubt) 1 Cor. 13:7, I'll believe for now that your intent in your attempted understanding is a well intended one.
At the same time, wood, hay, and stubble are still wood, hay, and stubble, whether well intended or not.
You are fusing Law and Grace despite the obvious.
I'd suggest you read Galatians a good dozen times or so. It was written to adress your exact confusion.
Of course, you will now reply with more of the same. But I am not the One you will one day have to answer to as to why you allowed yourself to marry your conclusions just because they appeared sound to you.
Again, read through Galatians a dozen times or so.
The best to you in this.
I have read Galatians a number of times in my life and I see no problem with any of it. But, I accept all of scripture so this should not be a challenge.
In the beginning and end of Romans I found a verse each that talk about faith and obedience. I concluded God wants me to be obedient to Him and not just believe. To believe is obedience as well. I just don't believe that is all there is to obedience. Maybe all there is to salvation though on our part is faith or belief.
Yes, Romans 6:14. It was a key verse. A friend shared it with me and it helped a lot. I know I am not under the Law but under grace. I still think I should obey God, even so.
There is no reason to fuse Law and Grace as you say.
The Law was added that the transgression would increase. What was known to be sin was shown to be sin. And sin became utterly sinful.
Still faith does not do away with the Law but establishes it. Even if only in history until the time of Christ the seed who was to come. That is, was this in our personal walks we learn how to obey God after coming to faith or is it that we know of faith and then the Law came in and then sin was known to be sin and then Christ or Messiah came and our sins which we knew to be sin were forgiven. No one has ever been saved apart from faith, and people in the Old Testament were saved by faith too.
Ephesians 2:8, 9 (saved by grace through faith).