ECT Those who believe will labor to enter the "Rest" of God"
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heir
TOL Subscriber
Doom
New member
The Jews are still being circumcised. If all they must do is believe on Christ, then why are they (Jews) still being circumcised?
Paul's message: Christ is no benefit to you if you are circumcised.
James message: Believe on Jesus and be circumcised
vfirestormv
Member
Where is nastiness. I have not resorted as many I have seen to name calling and the like. You say I am to be avoided, I say why I think you want to avoid me. If you are referring to the chopping of scripture quote, what else am I to call it.
You two are the ones twisting what someone else says and make snide remarks and when I get a little snappy back all the sudden it is the nastiness coming out. Give me a break...
Paul uses the case of Abraham BEFORE he was told to be circumcised.
When the promise made to Abe was unconditional.
Abe can also be used AFTER he was to be circumcised, and that is what the book of Hebrews speaks of.
Abe is the father of both the uncircumcised and the circumcised.
But one is conditional, and the other is not.
vfirestormv
Member
Wow, for real??? Because they rejected Christ! The Jews today as Christians are not required to be circumcised.
The mystery was revealed to ALL of His Holy apostles and Prophets.
Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
The ages past was before Christ, and a new age did NOT begin with Paul.
You have no scripture which says Paul began a new age.
LA
Doom
New member
There are not two gospels today.
Paul's message: Christ is no benefit to you if you are circumcised. (grace through faith)
James message: Believe on Jesus and be circumcised (faith plus works)
Two different gospels
The gospel to the Jew concerned the restoration of the kingdom to Israel.
Remember: Paul was going to the uncircumcised and Peter to the circumcised.
That is only possible if they are being circumcised, and they were.
heir
TOL Subscriber
Where does it say ALL?
Nope! The time past of Ephesians 2:11 KJV included the time of Acts 19 when the "you Gentiles" were worshipping the goddess Diana "at that time they were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world (Ephesians 2:12 KJV...BUT NOW:
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
heir
TOL Subscriber
You have a reading problem 1 Timothy 1:16 KJV
Hi , and what do yyou say Gal 3:29 means ??
Let me give you a CLUE , as you wrote " then are ye Abraham's seed " and the Translation in WRONG as you are !!
Why ??
Looking back to Gen 12:1 , it is not Abraham BUT IT IS ABRAM !!
Do you know WHY ?? Do you know why ??
Abraham , speaks to Israel !!
Abram speaks to Gentiles !!
So , what does Gal 3:29 then mean ??
Notice that the Greek Article is not used before " PROMISE !!
What is the " PROMISE " for verse 14 says what the " promise is " the Holy Spirit and his name is Abram in verse 14 and NOT Abraham !!:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:
Pentecostalism is tough on Low Informational people , don't you see !!
dan p
dan p
vfirestormv
Member
Yes, I believe that. Doesn't change the fact that no flesh was justified by works of the law. Why did the have animal sacrifices? Did those sacrifices bring forgiveness of their sins?
vfirestormv
Member
Amen, brother...
musterion
Well-known member
vfirestormv
Member
No, Abraham will do just fine. As Abraham means father of a multitude which then includes you and I.
Now I do see the point you are trying to make though. But that is why so many times God was referred to as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Now why? Let me tell you. Because God of Abraham would be God of Promise, God of Isaac same thing, God of Jacob now we have God of Israel. Which had conditions for blessings. But they too are the seed of Abraham and therefore children of promise.
You are definitely smarter than me, cause ya lost me there bud...
Ya got me again there bud, right over my head.
vfirestormv
Member
Well the way I figure it. I hear you say you believe in Christ by grace through faith. Am I right. Great, me too. Our disagreement is how others before us got saved. But you can feel free to see me any way you wish and even call me anything you wish. The only thing I will ask is that you don't go as far as some and blaspheme our God.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1Ti 1:
The word translated first in greek, means before-most or foremost.
It does not mean that Paul was the first to show forth the longsuffering of Christ in him.
Many of the apostles and others at the first suffered for the name of Christ before Paul did.
and Paul walked and suffered with Christians who were saved before he was.
What did Paul add to the gospel of Christ?
Nothing.
Paul was an example to all who would suffer for the name of Christ after him among the nations.
However all the apostles suffered that way as Paul had said--
1Co 4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
1Co 4:10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
1Co 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
1Co 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
1Co 4:13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
1Co 4:14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
1Co 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
(as Paul follows Christ)
1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
LA
musterion
Well-known member
If you mean, "Believe in Christ by grace through faith, utterly without works of any kind, ever, neither to obtain, maintain or prove one's salvation, including submission to any form or mode of water baptism," then yes, we agree. But is that what YOU mean?
It really doesn't matter to me. I live in the present, and I know the only way people are to be saved in the present is through Paul's gospel. These other discussions may be interesting and are edifying, but they're purely academic from a practical standpoint.
I've opposed several forms of blasphemy on this board. Ask around. I've called you nothing except one who dotes on questions that are not relevant to the original topic YOU raised, and who pretends answered questions were not answered (or maybe you're just not paying attention to our posts), and one who has started to get a bit nasty.
Apart from that, I don't think I've called you anything.
PS I have to ask...are you implying a MAD has blasphemed God? Just curious.
You left out that you believe Grace, is the escape from punishment if you sin.
Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
LA