things are different now...for me

[clefty]

“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side.

Is that anywhere else in scripture?

Do angels carry us to Abraham's side after we die?

What of final judgement? Is the atoning death not important enough to mention? Maybe not needed?

The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

Do those in Hell see outside it and are they able to communicate to those outside it? much less make requests? If one is in agony burning up in Hell would the request be to merely cool the tongue?

But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

Well that answers- Can people even travel back and forth between heaven and hell?

He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’” Luke 16:19-31

Abraham relies solely on the law of Moses? Did moses even talk about Hell? And Yahusha leaves out His critical role?

And it would appear some are still not convinced.

Maybe its a teaching aid, like a parable.

Or a clever riddle foreshadowing that there are some who, even after Yahusha rose from the dead, will not be convinced to choose life eternal and not its opposite.

 

[IMJerusha]

Is that anywhere else in scripture?

Do angels carry us to Abraham's side after we die?

What of final judgement? Is the atoning death not important enough to mention? Maybe not needed?


Do those in Hell see outside it and are they able to communicate to those outside it? much less make requests? If one is in agony burning up in Hell would the request be to merely cool the tongue?



Well that answers- Can people even travel back and forth between heaven and hell?



Abraham relies solely on the law of Moses? Did moses even talk about Hell? And Yahusha leaves out His critical role?



Maybe its a teaching aid, like a parable.

Or a clever riddle foreshadowing that there are some who, even after Yahusha rose from the dead, will not be convinced to choose life eternal and not its opposite.

Do you have reason to believe that Abraham is not in heaven? Why would Yeshua create and use a lie to prove a point?...even fabricate a name for the purpose. Wouldn't that make the point invalid. Worse...aren't you then stating that Yeshua was not sinless? A parable is one thing but this is an accounting of a man called Lazarus. Does Yeshua use this accounting to teach?...yes but that doesn't relegate the accounting to parable land.

 

[clefty]

Do you have reason to believe that Abraham is not in heaven?

I guess its time for the "state of the dead" debate...lol

Please read Luke 11: 38-44 ,the account of a real Lazarus, brother of Mary and Martha, who actually died and was not carried to Abraham's side, even after 4 days...

(Had he been, that would have been awful to return to this world once you're in paradise)

but he was sleeping...say what? so Yahusha then said "he is dead"


We should discuss this further if you wish...and this real account of an actual Lazarus being raised from the dead, not returned from paradise, is a good start.

Why would Yeshua create and use a lie to prove a point?...

are all His teachings from actual events?

even fabricate a name for the purpose.

names have significant meanings (as you know) and in this case added to the teaching

Wouldn't that make the point invalid. Worse...aren't you then stating that Yeshua was not sinless?

um...

Therefore Jesus told them, “The right time for me has not yet come; for you any time is right. The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil. You go to the Feast. I am not [yet] going up to this Feast, because for me the right time has not yet come.” Having said this, he stayed in Galilee.
However, after his brothers had left for the feast, he went also, not publicly, but in secret.
—John 7:1-10, NIV

we can debate that too...or wait to ask Him...

A parable is one thing but this is an accounting of a man called Lazarus.

so those in hell can see and converse with those in paradise?

Does Yeshua use this accounting to teach?...yes but that doesn't relegate the accounting to parable land.

for me it does...

 

[jamie]

Do you have reason to believe that Abraham is not in heaven?

Jesus died and went to hell. But it wasn't all bad, he recovered and is feeling fine now.

 

[clefty]

Jesus died and went to hell. But it wasn't all bad, he recovered and is feeling fine now.

Um you are been sarcastic yes?

I thought you didn't believe there was a hell for him to even go to-

Not even sure about that tale....why he would even go to hell?

Changed his mind on the judgement made for sinnerr to be there?

Mistrial ?

 

[IMJerusha]

I guess its time for the "state of the dead" debate...lol

If you insist but it doesn't belong here. Why don't you get out and about some? TOL isn't like Christian Forums though, where people can hide within their faith expression forum and expect a little Tishy to come to their rescue when they stick their foot in bias and untruth.
Perhaps you've been there?

Please read Luke 11: 38-44 ,the account of a real Lazarus, brother of Mary and Martha, who actually died and was not carried to Abraham's side, even after 4 days...

(Had he been, that would have been awful to return to this world once you're in paradise)

You mean John 11. Luke 11:38-44 is regarding Yeshua's rebuke of Pharisees which has nothing to do with Lazarus the brother of Mary and Martha. There is also nothing to indicate that the Lazarus Yeshua spoke of in Luke 16:19-31 is Lazarus, the brother of Mary and Martha in case you were thinking that.

but he was sleeping...say what? so Yahusha then said "he is dead"

Yes, but before He said that, He said "This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s Son may be glorified through it." There is so much we don't know or understand about God's power, purposes and omnipresence.

We should discuss this further if you wish...and this real account of an actual Lazarus being raised from the dead, not returned from paradise, is a good start.

I'm fairly certain Yeshua's Word on this subject is enough for me.

names have significant meanings (as you know) and in this case added to the teaching

Supra

um...Therefore Jesus told them, “The right time for me has not yet come; for you any time is right. The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil. You go to the Feast. I am not [yet] going up to this Feast, because for me the right time has not yet come.” Having said this, he stayed in Galilee.
However, after his brothers had left for the feast, he went also, not publicly, but in secret.
—John 7:1-10, NIV

we can debate that too...or wait to ask Him...

I'll wait, for the simple fact that I can't see Him fabricating a lie to promote a truth. Good is good and evil is evil and they don't mix.

so those in hell can see and converse with those in paradise?

Notice that the rich man wasn't talking to Lazarus but rather to Abraham, a prophet of God. Nor does Yeshua indicate that Lazarus could see or talk with the rich man.

are all His teachings from actual events?

I'm not at liberty to answer that question...I'm not God.

 

[jamie]

I thought you didn't believe there was a hell for him to even go to-

Not even sure about that tale....why he would even go to hell?

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Acts 2:27)

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
(Acts 2:31)​

 

[jamie]

“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’” Luke 16:19-31

And it came to pass that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom, the rich man also died and was buried and in hell he lift up his eyes being in torments and seeth Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue for I am tormented in this flame." (Luke 16:22-24)​

The word "hell" is the Greek hades which refers to the grave. But in this story the rich man (obviously not dead) is being tormented by flames. This is a very unusual grave.

Anyway, the rich man is crying out for less than a drop of water to cool him down.

The moral of the story is to not be buried next to a rich man because he will keep you up all night wanting water. You won't get any rest.

 

[clefty]

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Acts 2:27)

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
(Acts 2:31)​

depending on your translation hell is hades, grave, place of the dead, or just destruction etc...

Hell traditionally is a place bad people go to after judgement as punishment forever...

So why did Yahusha go there? He was innocent...



Why do you confuse any who attempt to converse with you?

You were clear about no eternal punishing so why the need for Hell?

Remember any of this?

post #243 It is not possible to live forever in "hell" which is the English translation of three different Greek words, none of which supports eternal life.

251 Salvation means being redeemed from the penalty of eternal death.

266 Humans will not be vexed forever, they will cease to exist.

Less than the blink of an eye. When the brain flat lines all sensory inputs are nullified and a dead person doesn't know they are dead.

279 It's painless, no torment at all.

So which is it?

 

[clefty]

The word "hell" is the Greek hades which refers to the grave.

oh see? You do know....

And that's exactly where Yahusha's soul or body were NOT left.

 

[jamie]

post #243 It is not possible to live forever in "hell" which is the English translation of three different Greek words, none of which supports eternal life.

Hades is a symbol for the grave representing physical death. No big deal.

Gehenna symbolizes the second death, eternal death. The dead bodies being destroyed by fire, a trash fire.

Tartarus symbolizes the darkened minds of sinful angels awaiting their judgment.

That's hell in a nutshell.

 

[IMJerusha]

And it came to pass that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom, the rich man also died and was buried and in hell he lift up his eyes being in torments and seeth Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue for I am tormented in this flame." (Luke 16:22-24)​

The word "hell" is the Greek hades which refers to the grave. But in this story the rich man (obviously not dead) is being tormented by flames. This is a very unusual grave.

Anyway, the rich man is crying out for less than a drop of water to cool him down.

The moral of the story is to not be buried next to a rich man because he will keep you up all night wanting water. You won't get any rest.

Oh please, this is too funny. Jamie, "The rich man also died and was buried." Since when are people buried alive? The body goes into the grave at death. The soul goes elsewhere immediately following death. You can call it Hades, you can call it Hell, you can call it Gehenna, whichever you prefer, but the fact is that the souls of saved believers don't go there.

 

[jamie]

Jesus did.

With regard to the parable I quoted it from the KJV.

You quoted, "The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment..." (NIV)

Hades symbolizes the grave. This was a very unusual grave, toasty warm. Due to the heat the guy got a little thirsty.

So what was the moral of the parable? You reap what you sow. Be charitable.

 

[IMJerusha]

Jesus did.

And in those two words alone do you display a marked lack of knowledge of Yeshua's place and mission. Yeshua went to Hell because He bore the weight of the world's sins on His back. But Hell and death could not hold him. "But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him." Acts 2:24

 

[JosephR]

Sheol, is where they were, and a gulf was betwixt them... am I right? same place but different sections.

 

[JosephR]

Hades is a symbol for the grave representing physical death. No big deal.

Gehenna symbolizes the second death, eternal death. The dead bodies being destroyed by fire, a trash fire.

Tartarus symbolizes the darkened minds of sinful angels awaiting their judgment.

That's hell in a nutshell.

Tarturus is said to be lower then Hell,or Sheol as the Earth is to Heaven, a special place for demons and the devil, the beast,that old serpent.A very special prison for spiritual beings.

 

[IMJerusha]

Hades symbolizes the grave. This was a very unusual grave, toasty warm. Due to the heat the guy got a little thirsty.

In Scripture, Hades is used eleven times. Ten of those times Hades is rendered as Hell and one time it is rendered as the grave. That is why I stated that the body goes into the grave, the hole in the ground that we dig. The soul goes elsewhere immediately following death and that is the reality. Souls don't stay in the ground to rot with the body.

 

[jamie]

In Scripture, Hades is used eleven times. Ten of those times Hades is rendered as Hell and one time it is rendered as the grave. That is why I stated that the body goes into the grave, the hole in the ground that we dig. The soul goes elsewhere immediately following death and that is the reality. Souls don't stay in the ground to rot with the body.

A soul is a living being. When a person is no longer alive they are no longer a soul. The spirit is a nonphysical component of a person that returns to the Father.

A body minus its spirit is dead. The brain ceases to function and the person does not know he is dead, not until the resurrection.

 

[IMJerusha]

A soul is a living being. When a person is no longer alive they are no longer a soul. The spirit is a nonphysical component of a person that returns to the Father.

A body minus its spirit is dead. The brain ceases to function and the person does not know he is dead, not until the resurrection.

Jamie, the soul is the spirit of the person. Don't you think you're nitpicking words?

 

[jamie]

Jamie, the soul is the spirit of the person. Don't you think you're nitpicking words?

Not when they are different words.

Paul said, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:23)

Spirit is pneuma.

Soul is psychē.

Body is sōma.