things are different now...for me

[clefty]

Actually, the word "church" would have been better translated as assembly.

it already is translated as assembly

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect... (Hebrews 12:23)

using it again would be redundant...

Jesus is not an assembly of one.

but we are an/the assembly of Him,Yahusha...the church OF the firstborn...the ekklessia the congregation the group the followers of the way etc...

we (plural) are of the singular He...Him...the first fruit...first born of Yah

However, if your mind is made up on the subject, so be it. I'm not here to argue with you. Go ahead and twist scripture to say whatever you want it to say.

:wave:

um...ok

 

[jamie]

All you are saying is that you don't understand the resurrections and that's okay, maybe God doesn't want you to understand.

 

[IMJerusha]

You said, "Everyone dies and everyone lives forever...whether in heaven or hell is up to Yeshua."

To live forever requires eternal life, what do you believe is the source of the ability to live forever?

It's not an ability. It's a consequence. Consider Revelation 21 and 22.

 

[IMJerusha]

One of the fundamental doctrines of Christ is eternal judgment.

True in that our judgment will be an eternal thing...no more chances after judgment.

Salvation means being redeemed from the penalty of eternal death.

False. That's not what Yeshua says. Again, consider Revelation 22:14-15. Outside the city ARE the perverts and those who practice magic, the immoral and the murderers, those who worship idols and those who are liars both in words and deeds. There's going to be living of a sort (if you want to call it that) outside of heaven but it's going to be torment like no torment humans understand and it will be eternal...every bit as eternal as life with God and Yeshua.

 

[IMJerusha]

Indeed it is, but not by me, if I want to refer to the P'rushim I will refer to them by name, likewise the Soferim (which can often be mistaken for one another in the NT) or a Hakham who's Sephardic usage it is a synonym for "rabbi". (but that is whole other topic altogether)

clefty was clearly making a reference to a saying of Messiah I am familiar with, at the time these above would have been the ancients or Sages, but now 2000 years later his sayings too are considered ancient, at least by me.

but then what does Ezra say? nothing new under the sun....

so they too can be traced back to a much further time...Son of Man comes to mind...which Messiah used.

I wouldn't compare Yeshua's words to those of the ancients because there is no comparison. John1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." There is nothing divine about the ancients.

true, but I fail to see how we are in any disagreement over that. :think:

Good then!

 

[jamie]

False. That's not what Yeshua says. Again, consider Revelation 22:14-15. Outside the city ARE the perverts and those who practice magic, the immoral and the murderers, those who worship idols and those who are liars both in words and deeds. There's going to be living of a sort (if you want to call it that) outside of heaven but it's going to be torment like no torment humans understand and it will be eternal...every bit as eternal as life with God and Yeshua.

The Revelation was written using symbols. For example, Jesus is described in the Revelation as a Lamb, but he is not literally a lamb.

Paul explains there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body. The natural body is physical, the spiritual body is nonphysical.

Only God can change a natural body to a spiritual body. A living body is a soul and Jesus said souls can be destroyed.

Spiritual bodies are not sensitive to physical sensations such as heat or cold. They don't need food or water to survive.

Satan will be vexed forever by being cast into darkness. But Satan has a spiritual body, humans don't. Humans will not be vexed forever, they will cease to exist.

 

[jeremysdemo]

I wouldn't compare Yeshua's words to those of the ancients because there is no comparison. John1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." There is nothing divine about the ancients.

well someone had to write them down... :think:

Jesus used that phrase often, "is it not written in your law". John 10:34

"it is written man shall not live by bread alone" Matthew 4:4, John 10:34, Luke 4:4.

no need to compare his words, he is referencing directly, his own word. :idea:

the entire NT is most likely scribed by someone other than the speakers....

the ancients don't have to be divine to have had at least a wee part of it correct, enough that he could bring to the Pharisees remembrance and have a basis of discussion.

as I said before and it stands true, all of this (me and clefty where discussing) is in the writings of the ancients, now how it has changed over millenniums, it's various interpretations, that is a different subject.

Good then!

yep.

 

[clefty]

All you are saying is that you don't understand the resurrections and that's okay, maybe God doesn't want you to understand.

Wait what? Your poor grammar is covering some deeper spiritual truth about resurrectionS that I would be able to understand if I wasn't such a grammar nazi?


To the general assembly and church of the firstborn which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect...

Hey you don't mean these guys do you ?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Firstborn_(Morrisite)

 

[IMJerusha]

Satan will be vexed forever by being cast into darkness. But Satan has a spiritual body, humans don't. Humans will not be vexed forever, they will cease to exist.

Jamie, does the False Prophet have a spiritual or a human body? Revelation 20:10

 

[jamie]

Jamie, does the False Prophet have a spiritual or a human body? Revelation 20:10

The false prophet symbolizes false religions. The beast symbolizes false political systems.

Both will end.

 

[IMJerusha]

The false prophet symbolizes false religions. The beast symbolizes false political systems.

Both will end.

That's a convenient interpretation. What "torment" is there for a false religion/ideal? What happens when you find out that Revelation isn't all symbolism? One thing is a fact....you stated "We are not saved by anyone's death including Jesus' death," This is a falsehood. This statement violates the faith of Yeshua and implies that death is not the consequence for sin and that Yeshua's death was not necessary for the atonement of sin. God, through Isaiah, states otherwise. “But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.” 1 Peter 2:24 states “He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed” A lot of people like to state that the Law never brought people into a right relationship with God. That's not true. Atonement was always possible. If there was no atonement for sin, what was the point of the sin sacrifices for atonement? Why did God give us His Law? What brought/brings God's people into a right relationship with God is not only obedience but also the attitude of the heart in the act of obedience. What good is atonement if it's done without true confession and repentance where it should start, in the heart? Before Yeshua on earth, God's people were JINO (Jews in name only) and post Yeshua on earth there are a lot of CINO (Christians in name only). God's people had become shallow and the sacrifices meaningless in their hearts. The sacrifices were meant to be something of great value to each person. God sacrificed His Son to show us His true desire for the right attitude of our hearts. Nothing is more precious to Him than His only Son. The sacrifice of Yeshua was necessary for our salvation and He was the Best that God had to offer.

 

[jamie]

One thing is a fact....you stated "We are not saved by anyone's death including Jesus' death," This is a falsehood.

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell and having made peace through the blood of his cross by him to reconcile all things unto himself, by him, I say, whether they be things in earth or things in heaven. (Colossians 1:19-20)​

Everyone on earth or in heaven has been reconciled to God by the blood of Jesus.

Let's say for the sake of discussion that "everyone" means everyone. If everyone has been reconciled to the Father then who does that leave who is not reconciled to the Father? Anyone? Or has everyone been reconciled?

This is the atonement. Was the atonement for everyone or were some left out and not reconciled?

Ok, back to you. What say you? Everyone reconciled or some reconciled? Everyone atoned for or some atoned for?

 

[IMJerusha]

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell and having made peace through the blood of his cross by him to reconcile all things unto himself, by him, I say, whether they be things in earth or things in heaven. (Colossians 1:19-20)​

Everyone on earth or in heaven has been reconciled to God by the blood of Jesus.

Let's say for the sake of discussion that "everyone" means everyone. If everyone has been reconciled to the Father then who does that leave who is not reconciled to the Father? Anyone? Or has everyone been reconciled?

This is the atonement. Was the atonement for everyone or were some left out and not reconciled?

Ok, back to you. What say you? Everyone reconciled or some reconciled? Everyone atoned for or some atoned for?

I've already answered this question in my previous post. It all comes down to the attitude of the heart "for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.…" Romans 10:10 Yeshua's death was for everyone, every sinner and by that death everyone has reconciliation. If we don't believe that in our hearts, however, and don't recognize the value of God's offering, we cast away our salvation, deny it and walk away from it.

 

[jamie]

Yeshua's death was for everyone, every sinner and by that death everyone has reconciliation.

Yes indeed, everyone has been reconciled to the Father but not everyone has been saved.

For one thing, not everyone has been born. And there are many people on the planet today that do not yet have God's salvation through Jesus Christ.

If you want to believe people are born already saved because Jesus died, go for it but I disagree.

 

[clefty]

Yes indeed, everyone has been reconciled to the Father but not everyone has been saved.

For one thing, not everyone has been born. And there are many people on the planet today that do not yet have God's salvation through Jesus Christ.

If you want to believe people are born already saved because Jesus died, go for it but I disagree.

I think she might mean that salvation is there available but we must chose to believe and accept not cast away our salvation and walk away...and in gratitude for the grace we receive we will wish to obey...

kinda seems like that...

"If we don't believe that in our hearts, however, and don't recognize the value of God's offering, we cast away our salvation, deny it and walk away from it."

 

[IMJerusha]

Kinda is like that!

 

[clefty]

That's a convenient interpretation. What "torment" is there for a false religion/ideal?

Reasonable people not believing it? It gets lonely...lol

But if believed, the consequence remains for the believers namely death. Eternal separation from Yah and His blessing of life.

What happens when you find out that Revelation isn't all symbolism?

you surprise me...

Sodom was destroyed with everlasting fire. Doesn't mean its still burning.

Samuel's mother brought him to abide with the Lord forever. But he died yes?

Eternal punishment is not eternal punishing...

http://tentmaker.org/articles/EternalPunishmentNotTrueToGreek.html

 

[Tambora]

Eternal punishment is not eternal punishing...

How long do you think the "punishing" lasts?

 

[jamie]

How long do you think the "punishing" lasts?

Less than the blink of an eye. When the brain flat lines all sensory inputs are nullified and a dead person doesn't know they are dead.

It's painless, no torment at all.

 

[IMJerusha]

“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’” Luke 16:19-31

And it would appear some are still not convinced.