The Yahweh Name

[TrevorL]

Greetings again oatmeal and Lon,

Use of the plural in Genesis this is a figure of speech referred to as the plural of majesty or the plural of intensity or as the trinitarian ew Bollinger calls it the heterosis of number used to magnify the greatness of the ACT being done.

This is one of the popular explanations, but when God wants to be emphatic he says, "I, I...". Perhaps you have not properly considered Psalm 8, and Psalm 8:5 which is a summary and David's commentary on Genesis 1:26-27 where the Elohim of Genesis 1:26-27 is split into the component entities Yahweh Psalm 8:1 and Angels (Elohim) Psalm 8:5, and thus the "our" includes the Angels. Man and Jesus were made lower (in the image and after the likeness) than the One God, Yahweh, God the Father and also a little lower than the Angels. Faithful man is destined to be equal to the Angels, while Jesus has been exalted above the Angels. Psalm 8 is a New Creation Psalm showing how God the Father who is the Lord of heaven and earth transfers the role, initially given to Adam, to our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God, who is a human, the Son of Adam, mortal, but he was specially strengthened by God Psalm 80:17 to open the way of salvation as captain of salvation, and then exalted to the right hand of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father.

You are indoctrinated, sold your soul to the company store (American West reference) and are stuck.

I appreciate your time. I notice that you have a major long running "sticky" thread January 13th, 2016 on the Trinity, 363 replies, 50k views, but I have not read this yet. I am not sure if you have been appointed as the Master of the subject of the Trinity, but in my estimation you have failed here. Perhaps I should consider some of the material on that thread, rather than turning this thread into a wide-ranging Trinitarian thread.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Lon]

I appreciate your time. I notice that you have a major long running "sticky" thread January 13th, 2016 on the Trinity, 363 replies, 50k views, but I have not read this yet. I am not sure if you have been appointed as the Master of the subject of the Trinity, but in my estimation you have failed here.

As if I have to convince you of anything....

Perhaps I should consider some of the material on that thread, rather than turning this thread into a wide-ranging Trinitarian thread.

Kind regards
Trevor

Do as you like. Until you are ABLE to listen, there is no point to any of this.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Lon,

Do as you like. Until you are ABLE to listen, there is no point to any of this.

After reading your response here I decided to look at your 'sticky' thread and was surprised. After reading the first page, 20 posts, I discovered the thread was not not meant to be a discussion on the Trinity. I did not like the flavour of the thread, and it appears that you are an administrator as you have deleted some threads. I decided to not read page 2, page 3 or page 19.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Lon]

Greetings again Lon,

After reading your response here I decided to look at your 'sticky' thread and was surprised. After reading the first page, 20 posts, I discovered the thread was not not meant to be a discussion on the Trinity. I did not like the flavour of the thread, and it appears that you are an administrator as you have deleted some threads. I decided to not read page 2, page 3 or page 19.

Kind regards
Trevor

Nope, not an admin. Are we talking about "Our Triune God?" or did you mean 'Tally of anti-threads?' The point in Our Triune God thread was not to 'debate' but to present so that 1) we Trinitarians could grasp/share more fully what scriptures say, 2) that any, such as yourself, could consider just scriptures and what they say. Propaganda? Maybe...as it reflects what we really do believe scripture says. If you ever were wanting to just read what we believe, and with rationale behind it, without a need to debate, then the thread will serve you very well. It actually lays out the scriptures and position very well when we aren't interrupted. We've had a few who were Unitarian, come back to orthodox views and that thread helped them, so if you can wade past any time it was interrupted, and just consider whether something is true or not, that thread will serve you. There are a few Unitarian comments that were inappropriate (coarse language and jesting, and what I considered foul and basal, especially profaning discussion of a holy nature) that had to be removed. You are correct I had some of it pared out when I could.

The 'tally' thread was simply to talk about 'why' there were so many, show how many there actually were, and discuss why it is about the only thing a Unitarian ever seems interested in. These later days, the thread has taken on a 'debate' nature, but that wasn't its original intent because every thread listed in it was already doing that. It was rather questioning why 'one thread' wouldn't serve and why every single Unitarian (it seemed) started their own thread apparently unaware of their fellow Unitarian's posts and threads. -Lon

 

[oatmeal]

Greetings again oatmeal and Lon,

This is one of the popular explanations, but when God wants to be emphatic he says, "I, I...". Perhaps you have not properly considered Psalm 8, and Psalm 8:5 which is a summary and David's commentary on Genesis 1:26-27 where the Elohim of Genesis 1:26-27 is split into the component entities Yahweh Psalm 8:1 and Angels (Elohim) Psalm 8:5, and thus the "our" includes the Angels. Man and Jesus were made lower (in the image and after the likeness) than the One God, Yahweh, God the Father and also a little lower than the Angels. Faithful man is destined to be equal to the Angels, while Jesus has been exalted above the Angels. Psalm 8 is a New Creation Psalm showing how God the Father who is the Lord of heaven and earth transfers the role, initially given to Adam, to our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God, who is a human, the Son of Adam, mortal, but he was specially strengthened by God Psalm 80:17 to open the way of salvation as captain of salvation, and then exalted to the right hand of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father.

I appreciate your time. I notice that you have a major long running "sticky" thread January 13th, 2016 on the Trinity, 363 replies, 50k views, but I have not read this yet. I am not sure if you have been appointed as the Master of the subject of the Trinity, but in my estimation you have failed here. Perhaps I should consider some of the material on that thread, rather than turning this thread into a wide-ranging Trinitarian thread.

Kind regards
Trevor

Psa 8:1
¶
[[To the chief Musician upon Gittith, A Psalm of David.]] O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.

Psa 8:5
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

The word for angels is the word elohim, commonly translated God. Thus

Psa 8:1
¶
[[To the chief Musician upon Gittith, A Psalm of David.]] O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
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Psa 8:2
Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
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Psa 8:3
When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
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Psa 8:4
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
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Psa 8:5
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
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Psa 8:6
Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
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Psa 8:7
All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
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Psa 8:8
The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.
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Psa 8:9
O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

Thus, "what is man, that thou are mindful of him?" tells us that the "him" that was made a little lower than the angels is man, however, now knowing that angels is elohim, God, we can now more accurately understand this as, "For thou has made man a little lower than God"

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again oatmeal,

Thus, "what is man, that thou are mindful of him?" tells us that the "him" that was made a little lower than the angels is man, however, now knowing that angels is elohim, God, we can now more accurately understand this as, "For thou has made man a little lower than God"

I appreciate your response. Firstly, Psalm 8:5 is specifically applied to Jesus, not just "man" in general. Your conclusion concerning "Elohim" is similar to many of the modern translations that give the translation "God". I prefer to accept the KJV translation of “angels” for the Hebrew word “Elohim”in Psalm 8:5. I also accept the Inspired Commentary on this passage in Hebrews 2, where the translation “Angels” is given.
Hebrews 2:5–9 (KJV): 5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
I suggest that this proves that these modern translations are incorrect and do not understand Psalm 8 and do not have a correct understanding of the word “Elohim” in the OT, and also the exposition of “Elohim” in this occurrence in Hebrews 2, and also few understand the exposition of “Elohim” in John 10:30-36.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[oatmeal]

Greetings again oatmeal,

I appreciate your response. Firstly, Psalm 8:5 is specifically applied to Jesus, not just "man" in general. Your conclusion concerning "Elohim" is similar to many of the modern translations that give the translation "God". I prefer to accept the KJV translation of “angels” for the Hebrew word “Elohim”in Psalm 8:5. I also accept the Inspired Commentary on this passage in Hebrews 2, where the translation “Angels” is given.
Hebrews 2:5–9 (KJV): 5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
I suggest that this proves that these modern translations are incorrect and do not understand Psalm 8 and do not have a correct understanding of the word “Elohim” in the OT, and also the exposition of “Elohim” in this occurrence in Hebrews 2, and also few understand the exposition of “Elohim” in John 10:30-36.

Kind regards
Trevor

That is certainly a point well taken

However we find that Adam and Eve had Dominion but they lost it when they sinned thus they were a little bit lower than God

Certainly Jesus Christ is that son of man but as far as man is in general God had given the instructions to Adam and Eve that they should have dominion and we would still have dominion if we had not sinned.

Clearly Jesus Christ is the first one to have dominion since Adam and Eve but that was not the only one intended to have dominion all mankind was to have dominion

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again oatmeal,

However we find that Adam and Eve had Dominion but they lost it when they sinned thus they were a little bit lower than God

Adam and Eve were a little lower than the Angels before they sinned Genesis 1:26-27, Psalm 8:5.

Clearly Jesus Christ is the first one to have dominion since Adam and Eve but that was not the only one intended to have dominion all mankind was to have dominion

Yes, but the whole process of dominion is now centred in Jesus and the faithful will receive the inheritance when Jesus returns Matthew 5:5, Genesis 13:14-15, Galatians 3:8,16,26-29.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[oatmeal]

Greetings again oatmeal,

Adam and Eve were a little lower than the Angels before they sinned Genesis 1:26-27, Psalm 8:5.

Yes, but the whole process of dominion is now centred in Jesus and the faithful will receive the inheritance when Jesus returns Matthew 5:5, Genesis 13:14-15, Galatians 3:8,16,26-29.

Kind regards
Trevor

Indeed.

We are more than conquerors now because of the accomplished works of Jesus Christ and God's love to us

 

[Right Divider]

However we find that Adam and Eve had Dominion but they lost it when they sinned thus they were a little bit lower than God

That might be the dumbest thing that you've ever posted.

They were never equals with God. Therefore they could not become "a little bit lower than God" because they sinned.

 

[oatmeal]

That might be the dumbest thing that you've ever posted.

They were never equals with God. Therefore they could not become "a little bit lower than God" because they sinned.

The son of man was made a little lower than God

Jesus always did the Father's will, not his own will, Jesus, as a good son, honored his Father because as Jesus said, the Father is greater than the son.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again oatmeal,

The son of man was made a little lower than God

I believe that the Son of Man, Jesus, was made a little lower than the Angels Hebrews 2:9, Psalm 8:4-5.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Right Divider]

The son of man was made a little lower than God

No, He was not. Jesus is and was always God.

Jesus always did the Father's will, not his own will, Jesus, as a good son, honored his Father because as Jesus said, the Father is greater than the son.

The Father was greater in position and not in being.

 

[Right Divider]

Greetings again oatmeal,

I believe that the Son of Man, Jesus, was made a little lower than the Angels Hebrews 2:9, Psalm 8:4-5.

Kind regards
Trevor

Isn't it odd that Paul wrote THIRTEEN epistles and NEVER ONCE called Jesus the Son of man?

The term "a little bit lower than the angels" refers to Christ's coming DOWN from heaven to take on human flesh.
i.e., God in the flesh.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Right Divider,

Isn't it odd that Paul wrote THIRTEEN epistles and NEVER ONCE called Jesus the Son of man?

Nevertheless, despite your unusual theology and two gospels, Jesus is the Son of Man, and actually the Son of Adam, a descendant from Adam and partaking of his fallen nature, but especially strengthened by God the Father, by means of his conception and education.
Psalm 80:17 (KJV): Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.

The term "a little bit lower than the angels" refers to Christ's coming DOWN from heaven to take on human flesh. i.e., God in the flesh.

No, Psalm 8 is the New Creation Psalm, taking the language and framework of the Edenic Creation to speak about the conception, suffering and exaltation of Jesus, the Son of God. Adam and Jesus were both made, or created a little lower than Elohim, the Angels Psalm 8:5. At birth, Jesus was a human, and lower than the Angels in physical status, as he was mortal, subject to death, in order to die and lead the faithful out of sin and death by means of his suffering, prayer, death and resurrection and the forgiveness of sins of those that believe in him and identify with his death and resurrection by baptism in water Acts 8:5-6,12 Romans 6:1-8. Not two gospels, only one.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Right Divider]

Greetings Right Divider,

Nevertheless, despite your unusual theology and two gospels,

1. There's nothing unusual about a theology that agrees with the Bible.
2. There are MANY gospels in the Bible, not just two.

Jesus is the Son of Man, and actually the Son of Adam, a descendant from Adam and partaking of his fallen nature,

Blaspheme will get you nowhere. Jesus did NOT partake of any fallen nature.

Not two gospels, only one.

Nope. MANY gospels not two or one.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Right Divider,

There are MANY gospels in the Bible, not just two.

The one Gospel that Jesus and Paul preached is the same gospel revealed in Eden Genesis 3:15, but if I wanted to discuss this topic I could respond to one of your very many threads on this subject.

Blaspheme will get you nowhere. Jesus did NOT partake of any fallen nature.

We differ here. Jesus came in the same flesh to overcome sin and its effects, condemning sin in the flesh Hebrews 2:14, Romans 8:3.

Please also consider the earlier posts on the subject of the Yahweh Name. Also Lon has fairly adequately represented the Trinitarian view in this thread. If you have any substantial additional contribution or reply please give this, but I am not interested in simply answering your waving a flag and shallow syllogisms.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Lon]

Greetings Right Divider,

Nevertheless, despite your unusual theology and two gospels, Jesus is the Son of Man, and actually the Son of Adam, a descendant from Adam and partaking of his fallen nature, but especially strengthened by God the Father, by means of his conception and education.
Psalm 80:17 (KJV): Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.

Er, no. That is derivative, deductive theology (and denomination). You will never, ever (period) find "Jesus, son of Adam."
1 Corinthians 15:47 Sadly, you Christadelphians don't know your Bible, JUST what you want to believe. How many times have you read through your Bible, Trevor? Even once? It shows.

No, Psalm 8 is the New Creation Psalm, taking the language and framework of the Edenic Creation to speak about the conception, suffering and exaltation of Jesus, the Son of God. Adam and Jesus were both made, or created a little lower than Elohim, the Angels Psalm 8:5. At birth, Jesus was a human, and lower than the Angels in physical status, as he was mortal, subject to death, in order to die and lead the faithful out of sin and death by means of his suffering, prayer, death and resurrection and the forgiveness of sins of those that believe in him and identify with his death and resurrection by baptism in water Acts 8:5-6,12 Romans 6:1-8. Not two gospels, only one.

Distraction. 1 Corinthians 15:47 However 'nice' and as many of them that you care about, DON'T be led astray! That'd be foolish, to listen to somebody and give allegiance instead of to Christ. Philippians 2:4-11;
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 3:20-21
20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

Kind regards
Trevor

If you don't believe this ▲ you are in trouble ▲

 

[Omniskeptical]

Greetings again oatmeal,

I appreciate your response. Firstly, Psalm 8:5 is specifically applied to Jesus, not just "man" in general. Your conclusion concerning "Elohim" is similar to many of the modern translations that give the translation "God". I prefer to accept the KJV translation of “angels” for the Hebrew word “Elohim”in Psalm 8:5. I also accept the Inspired Commentary on this passage in Hebrews 2, where the translation “Angels” is given.
Hebrews 2:5–9 (KJV): 5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
I suggest that this proves that these modern translations are incorrect and do not understand Psalm 8 and do not have a correct understanding of the word “Elohim” in the OT, and also the exposition of “Elohim” in this occurrence in Hebrews 2, and also few understand the exposition of “Elohim” in John 10:30-36.

Kind regards
Trevor

It doesn't angels of GOD, but angels/messengers as in massengers.

 

[Lon]

Problems with Christadelphians (a little primer on this oddity of the cult world):

1) There aren't even 100k of them :noway: There aren't even 70k of them!
2) Jesus came back in 1866 and the RC was destroyed (yeah, didn't happen).
3) Like many cults, these deny a need for a Savior. The Lord Jesus Christ just 'set an example' as 'just a man.' From reading their Bible? Not a chance. They clearly don't read and don't know the Bible and regard it as nice advice rather than something to adhere to. They don't believe, for instance, that Satan is a real being nor that he literally tempted Adam and Eve nor even Jesus. :Z
4) The majority of Christadelphians are easily duped Australians (most of the ones in England have died out). Above link is from orthodox Christians from Australia, giving directions for dealing with their own 'inhouse' problem with these cult members.

Summary: Small 'prediction' making oddball fringe with little in the way of actual scripture knowledge who even Australian Christians call 'nonChristian cultists' with poor theology.