The Vicarious Life and Death of Christ for the Believer

musterion

Well-known member
God demands righteousness.

Christ provides it to all who believe the gospel of grace, by His death, resurrection and indwelling life, not by His earthly walk.


Jesus said, "Be perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect" The law demands perfection. We don't have it to offer.

Nor does God expect it from those He declared dead to Law.

When Jesus died on the cross he put to death the whole Adamic race in himself, Romans 6:6. This is why Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ" God has brought forth a new humanity in the resurrection of Jesus, "If any man be "In Christ" he is a new creation, 2 Corinthians 5:17. The law has been fulfilled and abolished, Ephesians 2:15. Sin has been atoned for. "We are complete in Jesus Christ" Colossians 2:10. Jesus has victoriously justified the ungodly and has reconciled us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18,19.

Still waiting for chapter and verse on believers being saved by His earthly walk AND His death.
 

musterion

Well-known member
The Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the law, to be qualified to be the satisfactory sacrifice, the "lamb without blemish"-propitiation. But His keeping the law was not imputed to us, as Pate argues. This "vicarious law keeping" is a perversion of the gospel of Christ.

If one wants to be consistent with it, seems he would have to place faith in Christ's Law walk for his righteousness, in addition to trusting His death for his sin. But that would be adding to Paul's gospel since Paul never said to do both. I can't tell if Pate is that consistent with it though.
 

clefty

New member
Christ provides it to all who believe the gospel of grace, by His death, resurrection and indwelling life, not by His earthly walk.
yup...just a gift ain’t it?




Nor does God expect it from those He declared dead to Law.
weelllllll...how you suppose we are able to abide in His love then?



Still waiting for chapter and verse on believers being saved by His earthly walk AND His death.
I know right? Even Israel was saved from slavery without the Law...”who needs it?” was the general thought and consensus...even killed the Law giver for arguing otherwise...
 

musterion

Well-known member
yup...just a gift ain’t it?




weelllllll...how you suppose we are able to abide in His love then?



I know right? Even Israel was saved from slavery without the Law...”who needs it?” was the general thought and consensus...even killed the Law giver for arguing otherwise...

You're too ignorant to even form the right questions to ask.
 

clefty

New member
You're too ignorant to even form the right questions to ask.

Ouch...that easily triggered?

Must be still sore or something eh?


Some saw His walk and killed Him for it...some saw it, believed and were saved...AND took up their crosses and followed Him His Way because, well you know...He did...and told them to if they Loved Him...and wished to abide in His love...
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Ouch...that easily triggered?

Must be still sore or something eh?


Some saw His walk and killed Him for it...some saw it, believed and were saved...AND took up their crosses and followed Him His Way because, well you know...He did...and told them to if they Loved Him...and wished to abide in His love...


All that Jesus did and all that Jesus was, was for our justification.
 

clefty

New member
All that Jesus did and all that Jesus was, was for our justification.

Yup...and in Him we are a new creation not of this world not like our former selves at all...but living as He did doing as He did loving as He did...representing Him His Way
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Double Imputation - Ours to Him, His to Us

Double Imputation - Ours to Him, His to Us

The Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the law, to be qualified to be the satisfactory sacrifice, the "lamb without blemish"-propitiation. But His keeping the law was not imputed to us, as Pate argues. This "vicarious law keeping" is a perversion of the gospel of Christ.
The imputation of Adam's Sin is immediate—God imputes the sin and guilt of Adam's sin to every soul created. Unlike some mediate view, God does not wait until we commit sin and then impute the guilt of sin upon us after we sin, rather we are born in sin and bear the guilt of Adam's sin. This is based upon the fact that there is a comparison of the guilt of Adam's Sin with the righteousness we have in Christ (the double imputation of 2 Cor. 5:21). The symmetry of Adam and Christ in Romans 5 is important.

As Christ is not made a sinner by the imputation to Him of our sins, so we are not made holy by the imputation to us of His righteousness. The transfer is but of guilt from us to Our Lord, and of merit from Him to us. Jesus Christ justly suffered the punishment due to our sins, and we justly receive the rewards due to His righteousness, 1 John 1:8, 9.

AMR
 

john w

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Hall of Fame
The imputation of Adam's Sin is immediate—God imputes the sin and guilt of Adam's sin to every soul created. Unlike some mediate view, God does not wait until we commit sin and then impute the guilt of sin upon us after we sin, rather we are born in sin and bear the guilt of Adam's sin. This is based upon the fact that there is a comparison of the guilt of Adam's Sin with the righteousness we have in Christ (the double imputation of 2 Cor. 5:21). The symmetry of Adam and Christ in Romans 5 is important.

As Christ is not made a sinner by the imputation to Him of our sins, so we are not made holy by the imputation to us of His righteousness. The transfer is but of guilt from us to Our Lord, and of merit from Him to us. Jesus Christ justly suffered the punishment due to our sins, and we justly receive the rewards due to His righteousness, 1 John 1:8, 9.

AMR
And? Pay attention to the argument.

The Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the law, to be qualified to be the satisfactory sacrifice, the "lamb without blemish"-propitiation. But His keeping the law was not imputed to us, as Pate argues. This "vicarious law keeping" is a perversion of the gospel of Christ.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
The imputation of Adam's Sin is immediate—God imputes the sin and guilt of Adam's sin to every soul created. Unlike some mediate view, God does not wait until we commit sin and then impute the guilt of sin upon us after we sin, rather we are born in sin and bear the guilt of Adam's sin. This is based upon the fact that there is a comparison of the guilt of Adam's Sin with the righteousness we have in Christ (the double imputation of 2 Cor. 5:21). The symmetry of Adam and Christ in Romans 5 is important.

As Christ is not made a sinner by the imputation to Him of our sins, so we are not made holy by the imputation to us of His righteousness. The transfer is but of guilt from us to Our Lord, and of merit from Him to us. Jesus Christ justly suffered the punishment due to our sins, and we justly receive the rewards due to His righteousness, 1 John 1:8, 9.

AMR


"To declare, I say, at this time HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS: that he might be just, and THE JUSTIFIER of him that believes in Jesus" Romans 3:26.

This scripture plainly teaches that we are justified by the righteousness of Christ. A righteous person is one that is 100% obedient to God's holy law. Jesus in our name and on our behalf, fulfilled all of the demands of God's law and in doing so justified us.

If Jesus had failed to keep the law, where would we be?
 

john w

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"To declare, I say, at this time HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS: that he might be just, and THE JUSTIFIER of him that believes in Jesus" Romans 3:26.

This scripture plainly teaches that we are justified by the righteousness of Christ. A righteous person is one that is 100% obedient to God's holy law. Jesus in our name and on our behalf, fulfilled all of the demands of God's law and in doing so justified us.


If Jesus had failed to keep the law, where would we be?

The deceiver still does not get it.


Keeping the law, with "100% compliance," "100% obedient to God's holy law," Pate, is not the righteousness of God-it's just doing what it is required.

Hebrews 7:19 KJV For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


Moron, explaining your made up, satanic "doctrine."
 
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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Your assertion that the law has been abolished is a satanic lie, Pate, from the pits of hell, and Ephesians 2:15 KJV, which you reference, says no such thing, deceiver.

The law has been abolished for Christians. The Bible teaches that.

Ephesians 2:15.
Colossians 2:14.
Hebrews 8:13.
2 Corinthians 3:13.
Romans 6:14.
Romans 7:6.

"Tell me that you desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?" Galatians 4:21.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
The law has been abolished for Christians. The Bible teaches that.

Ephesians 2:15.
Colossians 2:14.
Hebrews 8:13.
2 Corinthians 3:13.
Romans 6:14.
Romans 7:6.


You lied again, Pate-Cannot ignore me, eh, Pate?

1.None of the above verses, deceiver, and no scripture asserts that the law was abolished, habitual liar, and Ephesians 2:15 KJV/Colossians 2:14 KJV are not referring to God's holy law, as you've been shown, despite daddy devil telling you they do,butcher of the book Pate, sloppy one-you satanically made it up.

-"Abolished for Christians" is a nonsensical type of statement, making the term "abolish" superfluous.

-"Abolished for Christians"

Christians were never under the law, so your "for" is meaningless.Survey 1 Timothy 1:9 KJV

The law applies only to the lost.

2.Christians are not under the law, as "a rule of life,"but that is not equivalent to the law being abolished, as you ignorantly assert, Gomer Pate. You're such a biblical illiterate, you invent the meaning, pervert the meaning of biblical words. Slower, moron-the law was not abolished-it still exists.


"Tell me that you desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?" Galatians 4:21.


As I've told you, false accuser-I've never asserted that Christians are under the law, so knock it off, with your straw man, you deceiver. And even though believers are not under the law, that does not mean the law was done away with, does not exist, as you keep satanically asserting.



Pate:"Who was delivered for our offenses, and who obeyed the law for our justification."


=satanic
 
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Ask Mr. Religion

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Active and Passive Obedience of Our Lord Propitiates the Wrath of God

Active and Passive Obedience of Our Lord Propitiates the Wrath of God

And? Pay attention to the argument.
Would that you take your own frequently offered advice.

All men are under the Covenant of Works unless they are saved by the Mediator of the Covenant of Grace. If a non-believer refuses to call upon the name of the Lord and be saved, he will be judged by what his words, deeds, and thoughts, hence, Covenant of Works. We know that no one can perfectly keep the moral law. Adam could not even keep one, the First one, preferring to be a god unto himself, thinking he knew more than the God to whom He owed his duty.

[Speaking strictly, Adam was not offered "salvation," but consummation. There is a difference. He could and would have earned, merited, consummation by his obedience just as the second Adam Jesus earned, merited our justification and glorification.]

The Fall did not abrogate the duty of men to keep the Law—two "tables" [the tablets] of the Decalogue: moral laws (not the ceremonial foreshadowings) concerning duty to God, duty to fellow man—later summarized by Our Lord (Matthew 22:37-39). Perfect obedience is still required before God. God’s character does not change, and He still speaks to mankind as if men are not fallen (James 1:17; Romans 8:4). The Law is the perfect reflection of the character and will of God which binds all rational creatures in perfect conformity in character and conduct.

Perfect obedience is still necessary to obtain eternal life (Galatians 5:3). Disobedience is still punished by death. The obligation to obey the Law is founded principally upon God, not “a covenant.” Men are unable to keep the Law as sinners, but inability does not negate their responsibility to obey.

Does the coming of Christ and the Gospel abrogate the duty to keep the law? No.

The existence of the Covenant of Grace confirms the Covenant of Works.


Perfect obedience is required to obtain eternal life because Christ's life and death were necessary to redeem His people. The Covenant of Grace demonstrates the need to uphold the righteous character of God. The fruit of Christ's work does not change the law, but changes the sinner. Jesus comes to fulfill the law (Matthew 5:17; Colossians 1:13). In His role as our substitute, of course, Christ is made under the law. Just as, with reference to human nature, what is not assumed is not redeemed, we can also say with regard to how we are circumstanced, that what was not shared was not defeated: and so Christ was subjected to the attacks of the devil, temptation, cruelty, the curse of the law, death itself - that He might triumph over them all as our head.

The Law cannot change because God does not change. This is critical to understanding the Covenant of Works. Instead, there remains a renewed statement of man’s miserable condition all through Scripture (Deuteronomy 30:9-10; John 7:19).

James 2:10, “For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all."

Jesus is "made of woman, made under the law, to redeem them who were under the law." He voluntarily subjects Himself under the law—not because He must fulfill it in order to qualify Himself (as some have argued) for His role; His obedience is not for himself—but in order to grant us credit for obedience, our empty balance sheets. Such is the "active obedience" of Christ.

We identify His passive obedience as that suffering He underwent, the penalty for all of our transgressions. This is the debt-ledger, the red ink of what we owed as tribute. Whence cometh the work of positive requirement? Nothing we offer comes up worthy, everything is substandard, mixed with sin so that we should repent of our obedience (so-called).

Jesus' being under the law, therefore, is not to fulfill the Covenant of Works for His own Person, or because He owes this obedience as a mere creation. His obedience was perfect from all eternity, His humanity was perfectly qualified for a sacrifice at His moment of conception. Nor was there any probation in His living a life of humiliation for some 33 and 1/2 years. Jesus is in all important ways exactly "like us," He became one of us in both body and soul. His humanity is not unique.

But in certain ways, Jesus is not exactly like us; He is better that our first representative, Adam. 1 Cor. 15:47, "The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven." Not simply that He is now glorified in his human nature, for in due time "we shall be like him" as He is now. But that Jesus possesses particular qualities that suit one of His supreme dignity and office. Humans mimic this kind of exaltation when they put certain men on pedestals; but our ranks and orders-of-being are unworthy of notice, compared to Christ.

It is because of who Jesus is, not simply what He accomplished, that He is so suitable a Mediator, and was constituted the Head of a new human-race, under the auspices of the Covenant of Grace.

Our Lord's active and passive obedience is the propitiation of the wrath of God for sin. His righteousness is what is therefore imputed to us. An infelicitous use of phrases like "His law-keeping is imputed" needs great qualification before anyone could even begin to understand what was being intended. Unfortunately, Robert tends to blog and then move along. The cross-examination he is receiving for these sweeping ill-formed statements is not uncommon. Rather, it is just being done by others than his usual interlocutor...me. ;)

AMR
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Would that you take your own frequently offered advice.

All men are under the Covenant of Works unless they are saved by the Mediator of the Covenant of Grace. If a non-believer refuses to call upon the name of the Lord and be saved, he will be judged by what his words, deeds, and thoughts, hence, Covenant of Works. We know that no one can perfectly keep the moral law. Adam could not even keep one, the First one, preferring to be a god unto himself, thinking he knew more than the God to whom He owed his duty.

[Speaking strictly, Adam was not offered "salvation," but consummation. There is a difference. He could and would have earned, merited, consummation by his obedience just as the second Adam Jesus earned, merited our justification and glorification.]

The Fall did not abrogate the duty of men to keep the Law—two "tables" [the tablets] of the Decalogue: moral laws (not the ceremonial foreshadowings) concerning duty to God, duty to fellow man—later summarized by Our Lord (Matthew 22:37-39). Perfect obedience is still required before God. God’s character does not change, and He still speaks to mankind as if men are not fallen (James 1:17; Romans 8:4). The Law is the perfect reflection of the character and will of God which binds all rational creatures in perfect conformity in character and conduct.

Perfect obedience is still necessary to obtain eternal life (Galatians 5:3). Disobedience is still punished by death. The obligation to obey the Law is founded principally upon God, not “a covenant.” Men are unable to keep the Law as sinners, but inability does not negate their responsibility to obey.

Does the coming of Christ and the Gospel abrogate the duty to keep the law? No.

The existence of the Covenant of Grace confirms the Covenant of Works.


Perfect obedience is required to obtain eternal life because Christ's life and death were necessary to redeem His people. The Covenant of Grace demonstrates the need to uphold the righteous character of God. The fruit of Christ's work does not change the law, but changes the sinner. Jesus comes to fulfill the law (Matthew 5:17; Colossians 1:13). In His role as our substitute, of course, Christ is made under the law. Just as, with reference to human nature, what is not assumed is not redeemed, we can also say with regard to how we are circumstanced, that what was not shared was not defeated: and so Christ was subjected to the attacks of the devil, temptation, cruelty, the curse of the law, death itself - that He might triumph over them all as our head.

The Law cannot change because God does not change. This is critical to understanding the Covenant of Works. Instead, there remains a renewed statement of man’s miserable condition all through Scripture (Deuteronomy 30:9-10; John 7:19).

James 2:10, “For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all."

Jesus is "made of woman, made under the law, to redeem them who were under the law." He voluntarily subjects Himself under the law—not because He must fulfill it in order to qualify Himself (as some have argued) for His role; His obedience is not for himself—but in order to grant us credit for obedience, our empty balance sheets. Such is the "active obedience" of Christ.

We identify His passive obedience as that suffering He underwent, the penalty for all of our transgressions. This is the debt-ledger, the red ink of what we owed as tribute. Whence cometh the work of positive requirement? Nothing we offer comes up worthy, everything is substandard, mixed with sin so that we should repent of our obedience (so-called).

Jesus' being under the law, therefore, is not to fulfill the Covenant of Works for His own Person, or because He owes this obedience as a mere creation. His obedience was perfect from all eternity, His humanity was perfectly qualified for a sacrifice at His moment of conception. Nor was there any probation in His living a life of humiliation for some 33 and 1/2 years. Jesus is in all important ways exactly "like us," He became one of us in both body and soul. His humanity is not unique.

But in certain ways, Jesus is not exactly like us; He is better that our first representative, Adam. 1 Cor. 15:47, "The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven." Not simply that He is now glorified in his human nature, for in due time "we shall be like him" as He is now. But that Jesus possesses particular qualities that suit one of His supreme dignity and office. Humans mimic this kind of exaltation when they put certain men on pedestals; but our ranks and orders-of-being are unworthy of notice, compared to Christ.

It is because of who Jesus is, not simply what He accomplished, that He is so suitable a Mediator, and was constituted the Head of a new human-race, under the auspices of the Covenant of Grace.

Our Lord's active and passive obedience is the propitiation of the wrath of God for sin. His righteousness is what is therefore imputed to us. An infelicitous use of phrases like "His law-keeping is imputed" needs great qualification before anyone could even begin to understand what was being intended. Unfortunately, Robert tends to blog and then move along. The cross-examination he is receiving for these sweeping ill-formed statements is not uncommon. Rather, it is just being done by others than his usual interlocutor...me. ;)

AMR


All of that and you did not address the real issue. Has the law been abolished? Are Christians still under the law and subject to it?
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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All of that and you did not address the real issue. Has the law been abolished? Are Christians still under the law and subject to it?
Robert,

That you ask this informs me you did not actually read my post carefully. I realize your attention span is limited to only short snippets of weighty matters, in spite of your usual lengthy opening blog posts in new threads. Odd that you expect others to read your wordy opening posts, yet when someone responds in kind, you immediately take offense and seek shelter from having to respond substantively behind their "longwindedness". Rather, try to read carefully when someone responds to your opinions in your "articles".

The answer....

The moral law contained in the two tables of the Law, summarized by Our Lord as the first and second great commandments, is not abrogated (repealed). I clearly stated so in my post. We are subject to the moral law in the sense that we have a duty to obey the moral law. Christians are not "subject to the law" for salvific matters. True believers will have no problem with this, for they will want to keep the moral laws out of love and duty to Our Lord, repenting when they fail to measure up to them, too.

As to being "under the law", Christians are not, if by the phrase, you assume the law bears some salvific content for the believer. Such an erroneous assumption would lead one to say:
By "under the law" or "subject to the law" it is meant that by the Christians' keeping of the moral laws, they will keep themselves saved.​

This is nonsensical. I assume you are not making such a claim, despite how infelicitous some of the wording in your posts may be.

Asked and answered...again. :AMR:

AMR
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Robert,

That you ask this informs me you did not actually read my post carefully. I realize your attention span is limited to only short snippets of weighty matters, in spite of your usual lengthy opening blog posts in new threads. Odd that you expect others to read your wordy opening posts, yet when someone responds in kind, you immediately take offense and seek shelter from having to respond substantively behind their "longwindedness". Rather, try to read carefully when someone responds to your opinions in your "articles".

The answer....

The moral law contained in the two tables of the Law, summarized by Our Lord as the first and second great commandments, is not abrogated (repealed). I clearly stated so in my post. We are subject to the moral law in the sense that we have a duty to obey the moral law. Christians are not "subject to the law" for salvific matters. True believers will have no problem with this, for they will want to keep the moral laws out of love and duty to Our Lord, repenting when they fail to measure up to them, too.

As to being "under the law", Christians are not, if by the phrase, you assume the law bears some salvific content for the believer. Such an erroneous assumption would lead one to say:
By "under the law" or "subject to the law" it is meant that by the Christians' keeping of the moral laws, they will keep themselves saved.​

This is nonsensical. I assume you are not making such a claim, despite how infelicitous some of the wording in your posts may be.

Asked and answered...again. :AMR:

AMR


Just as I suspected. You are under the law. Religious people like yourself cannot accept the fact that the law has been abolished. All of it. We do not keep ourselves saved. How are you going to keep yourself saved? Of course, by the works of the law, what else?

When we come to Christ to be saved by him, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13 and are placed "In Christ" there is no unsealing. Once sealed always sealed. This is how we are sanctified in Christ, 1 Corinthians 1:30. It is all of God.
 

musterion

Well-known member
Pate,

Do you acknowledge the possibility that your claim "the Law has been abolished" and the Pauline truth that the believer, counted as having died with Christ, is dead to Law, are not the same thing?
 
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