The Vicarious Life and Death of Christ for the Believer

glorydaz

Well-known member
I can tell by the way that you write that you are very intelligent, maybe a scholar. I am use to reading the works of scholars. Sometimes they are a little difficult to understand. I suppose that many of the Pharisees were also highly educated scholars. They knew the law backwards and forwards. Unfortunately they didn't know who Jesus was because they were blinded by their religion. Kind of like you. Faith does not save anyone. What saves is the doing and the dying of Jesus. The whole world has been reconciled unto God by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:19. Our faith didn't have a thing to do with it.

Except that God justifies those with faith in His blood.

We would not be saved without it.

Romans 3:25
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;​
 

Stuu

New member
How does one judge what is moral apart from an appeal to God's revealed word? Thus, the onus is not on God to justify his actions, but on us to lay aside our preconceptions and sincerely desire the truth of what God, the only source of goodness and light, is truly saying.
The good news of Jesus is that it is all made up. Men don't actually walk after they have been executed, babies are not born of one parent, and there was never a time of only one pair of humans. Those things are impossible magic, and you know that deep down.

So what do you do now? You stop judging people as wrongdoers just because they were BORN, and you find a way to work with your fellow humans to the peace and good fortune of all without relying on a nasty promise that the wrongdoers-just-because-they-were-born will be burned in sulfur for eternity.

You are a decent person, and you can judge for yourself what good ethics involves. You don't need any angry sky friends.

Just a thought.

Stuart
 

musterion

Well-known member
Faith is the condition for claiming what Our Lord accomplished, Robert.

True, according to Paul. But we know you really mean Calvinistic election is the condition for faith, which in turn is the condition for being saved.

He died for the believing ones, not for each and every person, else all would be saved.
False.

False. No one is so utterly void of faith that he/she cannot believe. To say they are makes God a liar.

Christ died for all because all CAN and SHOULD believe. All COULD be saved, and exactly there lies God's condemnation upon all who WILL NOT believe.

There is no possible ground for God justly condemning unbelief except that all CAN believe, but many refuse to.

What He did is not effectual for non-believers.

Yes, BECAUSE they will not believe, not because God excluded them in eternity past.
 

Myrrhcask

New member
The good news of Jesus is that it is all made up. Men don't actually walk after they have been executed, babies are not born of one parent, and there was never a time of only one pair of humans. Those things are impossible magic, and you know that deep down.

So what do you do now? You stop judging people as wrongdoers just because they were BORN, and you find a way to work with your fellow humans to the peace and good fortune of all without relying on a nasty promise that the wrongdoers-just-because-they-were-born will be burned in sulfur for eternity.

You are a decent person, and you can judge for yourself what good ethics involves. You don't need any angry sky friends.

Just a thought.

Stuart

I want to understand your correctly, so I will go paragraph by paragraph.

1. It seems you are saying:
--that the good news about Jesus is a lie.
--that you doubt either (a) eyewitness testimony that Jesus was dead by crucifixion and by having his heart pierced with a spear or (b) eyewitness testimony that after being buried in a tomb Jesus came back to life and interacted with many of his followers or (c) both.
--that you doubt that either (a) Mary was a virgin at the time of Jesus' birth or (b) that Jesus was born at all.
--that you doubt Adam and Eve ever existed, since there was never a time when there were only two people.

2. You seem to dislike the doctrine of original sin. (Personally, I don't like churchy words, but it does save time in terms of making a reference.)

3. You think:
--I am a decent person and can make my own decisions about what is good or bad.
--God is just a figment of man's creation.

If I don't understand you correctly, please let me know. My responses below will be incomplete, but if you are sincere, and not just trolling, you may want to read C. S. Lewis' book "Mere Christianity". He gives a much fuller response to many, if not all, of the questions you raise.

1.
A. There is no better news than that Jesus, the literal Son of God, became a man so as to pay the penalty for man's waywardness so that man could be restored to friendship with his creator. There is no story like it. It goes against so much of what our natural minds think that it bears a mark of originality and authenticity.
True, some myths talk of gods who sacrifice themselves on mankind's behalf, but these myths invariably show the sacrificial god as doing so in opposition to a higher power, for which he suffers the penalty of death for his own rebelliousness. In Jesus' case, he colluded with God in a plan to become a man himself so that he could suffer man's penalty, not his own, so that God could remain truly just in forgiving the wrongdoing of mankind (which deserved and required punishment), since the price for man's wrongdoing was fully paid.
B. If you doubt eyewitness testimony, ... I don't know what to say. How can you believe anything: a news report, the findings of a court which are based on testimony, a scientific report which is based on testimony? Even scientific data is offered by testimony and should be confirmed by repeatable experiments whose findings are also presented by way of testimony. Thus, scientific understanding is based on the testimony of multiple witnesses. The facts of Jesus' death and resurrection are confirmed by multiple eyewitnesses, more than can confirm the existence of Homer, Socrates or, probably, Confucius. I would recommend a read of "Evidence that demands a verdict" by Josh McDowell for a fuller response.
C. I don't know where you stand on the topic of evolution, but I have much less trouble believing that God, who designed DNA in the first place, could impregnate a virgin, than to believe that the unimaginably complex processes of life could have formed themselves accidentally no matter how long a time period you use--and the clock is ticking and it is becoming ever clearer that the past did not stretch out indefinitely and was shorter than would even reasonably allow for such "accidents" to occur. The theory of spontaneous generation was disproved by Pasteur at about the same time that Darwin was formulating his hypotheses. Why people did not connect the dots, I have no idea. But the idea of life arising from mud puddles persisted. Of course, in fairness, they knew nothing of the complexity of DNA replication.
D. As we understand more about DNA, and it's continuing witness among us, we are gradually seeing confirmation of biblical accounts. At the moment, DNA origins seem to agree with the general part of the world the Bible described: i.e. the Middle East and North East Africa. I don't doubt that unbiased further investigation will produce further confirmation of biblical accounts. Of course, finding unbiased investigators who are not pushing their own agenda are always rare.
But if there were never only two people, how can you account for the appearance of multiple people at once? Did they arise simultaneously at different places? Then how could they interbreed? Did they come by spacecraft? Then I have the same question, just a different locale.

2. Without reference to a higher authority it is impossible to have concepts of right or wrong, good or evil. C. S. Lewis dealt with this question much better than I can here. But without an external reference point, what I consider good could be bad to you and vice versa. There would also be no way to decide which opinion is better, yet both cannot be equally valid unless we are never to have contact. The moment we interact, our differing ideas of morality will inevitably cause conflict and conflict will likely harm one or both of us.
Within ourselves, I believe we all realize at some level that we have not always acted as we should, often by way of unexamined responses to circumstances or people. Often we have learned these responses from interaction with other people or by observation of other people. This is one vector for the transmission of sin from generation to generation.
From another angle, we are discovering that some choices we make affect our DNA. These changes will then be passed on to our offspring. So, here is another vector for how sin or it's consequences can be passed from generation to generation.

3.
A. How can you decide whether I am decent or not without a point of reference? What defines decency?
If I make my own decisions about what is right and wrong, we end up with the problem I described above.
B. It seems extremely odd that ancient mankind all over the world believed in some form of higher power. Only recently, historically speaking, has the concept of God been rejected. And yet we, in our enlightenment, cannot figure out how those ancient idiots could have erected such edifices as the walls of Cuzco, all our engineering expertise and machinery notwithstanding. Either the ancients had capable minds, like our own, or our minds have evolved beyond theirs. Then, why can we not, with our evolved minds, understand how they accomplished such building feats? All our machines cannot hope to lift such massive blocks of stone, much less fit them so precisely. I believe we vastly underestimate the understanding of the ancients, and our hubris in this is to our detriment.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Didn't you say there's a difference between law being (allegedly) abolished, and God reckoning the believer as dead to Law?

While Jesus was dying on the cross God tore the veil that covered the Holy of Holies from the top to the bottom, Matthew 27:51. This signified the end of the Old Covenant, the law and the Jewish religion.

This is why we are not to live according to law. The law has been abolished, Ephesians 2:15.

Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live" Galatians 2:20. When Jesus died on the cross, we died with him, this is what Paul meant. We are now dead to not only the law, but also to sin, the flesh, the devil and the world, Romans 6:1-23.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Except that God justifies those with faith in His blood.

We would not be saved without it.

Romans 3:25
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;​

Yes, we are justified by faith. But faith does not do the work of justification, Jesus is the one that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5. Not our faith.
 

God's Truth

New member
Yes, we are justified by faith. But faith does not do the work of justification, Jesus is the one that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5. Not our faith.

You can't even access grace if you don't have faith.

Romans 5:2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
pate

Faith does not save anyone. What saves is the doing and the dying of Jesus.

Yet you teach that sinners Christ died for are lost and condemned. You contradict yourself, a sure evidence of false teaching !
 

beloved57

Well-known member
You can't even access grace if you don't have faith.

Romans 5:2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

Those Christ died for are saved/reconciled to God while they are enemies Rom 5:10.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame

All men are under the Covenant of Works unless ....

There is no such thing as " the Covenant of Works"-you made it up.




[Speaking strictly, Adam was not offered "salvation," but consummation.

Speaking strictly, there is no such thing as Adam being offered "consumation"-you made that up.



Men are unable to keep the Law as sinners, but inability does not negate their responsibility to obey.

Translation: Calvinism made up mumbo jumbo, double speak.

The existence of the Covenant of Grace confirms the Covenant of Works.

There is no such thing as " the Covenant of Grace," or the Covenant of Works"--you made it up.

The Covenant of Grace...blah blah blah...
...is a made up term, from your "the" church SOF-not scriptural.



You Clavinists/Calvinists are beginning to bore me.


Take your seat.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
While Jesus was dying on the cross God tore the veil that covered the Holy of Holies from the top to the bottom, Matthew 27:51. This signified the end of the Old Covenant, the law and the Jewish religion.

This is why we are not to live according to law. The law has been abolished, Ephesians 2:15.

You made that up.And Ephesians 2:15 says no such thing, as you've been shown.


Those crazy Acts believers.....observing Pentecost, according to the law/Old Covenant....Who taught them that, i.e., to observe the OC/law, "post cross?"


Acts 1 KJV

1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:



Clueless Pate.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Yes, we are justified by faith. But faith does not do the work of justification, Jesus is the one that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5. Not our faith.

From faith to faith, Robert. The One who justifies the ungodly only justifies those who have faith in His blood. The ungodly who have no faith in His blood are not justified. So, our having faith is necessary for salvation.

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:​
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
From faith to faith, Robert. The One who justifies the ungodly only justifies those who have faith in His blood. The ungodly who have no faith in His blood are not justified. So, our having faith is necessary for salvation.

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:​

Our faith is what makes the justifying work of Jesus ours. No one can be justified without faith. But our faith does not do the work of justification. We are justified by the doing and the dying of Jesus. He and he alone justifies, Romans 3:26.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Faith does not save anyone. What saves is the doing and the dying of Jesus. The whole world has been reconciled unto God by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:19. Our faith didn't have a thing to do with it.

Our faith is what makes the justifying work of Jesus ours.

Well, that proves we do have something to do with our salvation. So perhaps you just need to clarify your statement.

The same with the whole world being reconciled....that's but the half of it. We must each be reconciled by faith in His blood.
 

clefty

New member
While Jesus was dying on the cross God tore the veil that covered the Holy of Holies from the top to the bottom, Matthew 27:51. This signified the end of the Old Covenant, the law and the Jewish religion.
the veil which seperated the holy and the most holy was to keep people protected from the glory and keep them from approaching as they were ever sinful...

The second temple holy of Holies did not have the mercy seat nor the literal spirit of Yah or even the fire of heaven...for centuries the second holy of Holies was empty...

But back to the point of the curtain ripped...not to end anything but to make the holy of holy approachable by any and all...to approach mercy resting on the law...His Laws are in no need to have a physical covering as they are no in the hearts and minds of His people...who are now priests anyway...

This is why we are not to live according to law.
LOL so much wrong in one sentence...

The law has been abolished, Ephesians 2:15.
the 10 commandments were not contained in the ordinances...you would have entire constitution revoked by the removal of a noise ordinance or traffic ticket...LOL

Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live" Galatians 2:20. When Jesus died on the cross, we died with him, this is what Paul meant. We are now dead to not only the law, but also to sin, the flesh, the devil and the world, Romans 6:1-23.
oh man...what an awesome train wreck can’t avert my eyes...

If you get your ticket paid by someone else you are not dead to the traffic law...good grief...you are certainly not free of poor driving...or others devilish drivers running into you...what is wrong with you?

You really are a juvenile...boo hoo gravity made me fall...@#$!!@ the Law...the garden of Eden was perfect until God made them sin..

We establis law...here are they not who are lawless but keep the commandments...if you love me keep the commandments...to abide in My Love...

Books are opened and they are judged...by what if the Law is abolished?...

If the Law could be abolished why didnt He do it sooner and not risk His Son or killing Him or all the others through out the centuries?...think of the little animals and childrens!!
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
the veil which seperated the holy and the most holy was to keep people protected from the glory and keep them from approaching as they were ever sinful...

The second temple holy of Holies did not have the mercy seat nor the literal spirit of Yah or even the fire of heaven...for centuries the second holy of Holies was empty...

But back to the point of the curtain ripped...not to end anything but to make the holy of holy approachable by any and all...to approach mercy resting on the law...His Laws are in no need to have a physical covering as they are no in the hearts and minds of His people...who are now priests anyway...

LOL so much wrong in one sentence...

the 10 commandments were not contained in the ordinances...you would have entire constitution revoked by the removal of a noise ordinance or traffic ticket...LOL

oh man...what an awesome train wreck can’t avert my eyes...

If you get your ticket paid by someone else you are not dead to the traffic law...good grief...you are certainly not free of poor driving...or others devilish drivers running into you...what is wrong with you?

You really are a juvenile...boo hoo gravity made me fall...@#$!!@ the Law...the garden of Eden was perfect until God made them sin..

We establis law...here are they not who are lawless but keep the commandments...if you love me keep the commandments...to abide in My Love...

Books are opened and they are judged...by what if the Law is abolished?...

If the Law could be abolished why didnt He do it sooner and not risk His Son or killing Him or all the others through out the centuries?...think of the little animals and childrens!!


You are in conflict with the teachings of Paul. Who is a chosen apostle of Jesus Christ.

Here is some scriptures that you need to read, Romans 6:1-23.

You need to renounce Christianity and convert 100% to Judaism.
 

clefty

New member
You are in conflict with the teachings of Paul. Who is a chosen apostle of Jesus Christ.

Here is some scriptures that you need to read, Romans 6:1-23.

Do you skip the very beginning? “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?”

Or this: “Don’t let sin reign in your mortal body”...hmmm thought we were immune...

“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? Certainly not!”

So sin remains and we could choose to...thought we were dead to sin, freed from sin...the law abolished how could we know what was sin?

Hey dont you know who you present yourself AS A SLAVE to obey you are their slave either to sin (WHAT? Again thought that was abolished) to death...arent we immune? IN CHRIST no judgement at all...

“Or of obedience to righteousness” HELLO? Thought we didnt do anything...our works filthy rags...just faith...LOL...

But thank God that though once you were a slave to sin yet you obeyed from the heart (you know where He wrote His Law on His people) that form of doctrine...hmmmm what it aint just faith but being a slave of righteousness slaves of God your fruit to holiness...wow...sound more than just believe...

You need to renounce Christianity and convert 100% to Judaism.
Him His way is not jewish...neither in scripture nor how it is done now...but thanks anyway...
 
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