The verses dispys misinterpret--

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northwye

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There are several New Testament scriptures that question the Christian Zionist insistence that Romans 11: 25-26 says that when all Gentiles are saved who God intends to save, then God will save all Old Covenant Israel, or all of the bloodline living at that time, or many more of the them than are now being saved.

"For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." II Corinthians 3: 9-11 The ministration of condemnation is the Old Covenant and the Ministration of righteousness is the New Covenant.

"Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." Hebrews 10: 9

Since the Old Covenant was taken away, how can all Old Covenant Israel be saved in the future?

Some Old Testament are scriptures also inconsistent with Old Covenant Israel being saved in he future.

"And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6. O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel." Jeremiah 18: 4-6

Since God remade Old Covenant Israel into that house in I Peter 2: 5 which is "as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood," how can he then save all Old Covenant Israel?

"The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts." Haggai 2: 9

If God's latter house has greater glory than the former house, why would God honor the latter house in the future?

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2: 28-29

The definition of a Jew, as being of the bloodline of the Old Covenant, has been changed in the New Covenant to one who is inwardly "circumcised of he heart, in the spirit."

This doctrine is made more explicit and supported by Galatians 3: 3, 16,26-29 "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?.........Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.............For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Since the physical boodline is fulfilled in Jesus Christ, and through Christ alone the seed of Abraham becomes spiritual and all, regardless of physical bloodline, who are in Christ are heirs to the promise made spiritual how can the physical bloodline be honored by using it to select those saved?

"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9: 6-8 Again, the children of the flesh, only o the physical bloodline, are not the children of God.

"Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." Galatians 4:24-26

Old Covenant Israel is here the Jerusalem which is in bondage, while the Jerusalem of the New Covenant is above, is free and is the mother of all of the elect.

And - in Romans 11 17 the olive tree into which Gentiles are grafted when they become part of he elect, of the Israel of God, cannot be Old Covenant Israel. It began with that remnant in Romans 11: 5 who as people of the physical bloodline were elected by grace, and so those early Gentiles who bcame saved were grafted in among that remnant.
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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Lazy afternoon said:
The Madist says that such Grace did not begin until Paul.

The cross of Christ bought that Grace and the church of Acts ch 2 enjoyed it.

Act 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
Act 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Act 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.






Abraham had faith with works--

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Madists are saying that Grace will end when Christ returns.

Such is not the case.

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Madism is a contradiction of the Bible and just a pack of lies.

Madism says Christ will rule over the Jews in the Kingdom by the reintroduction of the law.

What a pack of lies.

LA
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Why are you "ALWAYS" wrong? Stay off of that LA Freeway. It has back to back false doctrine.
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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Earlier today someone accused me of sounding like an Acts 2 Dispensationalist. Of course, I denied it emphatically. Acts 2 pertained to the House of Israel as well as, Penticost. The Apostle Paul had yet to enter the picture and the Ascended Christ had not given Paul the Grace Gospel to preach to the Gentiles.

Why this poster made this "accusation" isn't apparent to me? He and I had a falling out of sorts and subsequently I placed him on ignore. Rightfully so, I might add. He became somewhat hostile and said I was acting childish. I see that as being ironic. If you'll look up the word "Dispensation" in the secular and religious meanings you'll find a correlation betwixt the two. Peruse this thread and you'll see the relevance of what I'm saying here.
 
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Lazy afternoon

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Grosnick Marowbe said:
Earlier today someone accused me of sounding like an Acts 2 Dispensationalist. Of course, I denied it emphatically. Acts 2 pertained to the House of Israel as well as, Penticost. The Apostle Paul had yet to enter the picture and the Ascended Christ had not given Paul the Grace Gospel to preach to the Gentiles.

Why this poster made this "accusation" isn't apparent to me? He and I had a falling out of sorts and subsequently I placed him on ignore. Rightfully so, I might add. He became somewhat hostile and said I was acting childish. I see that as being ironic. If you'll look up the word "Dispensation" in the secular and religious meanings you'll find a correlation betwixt the two. Peruse this thread and you'll see the relevance of what I'm saying here.
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If its too hot in the kitchen then you ought to leave.

Heaven forbid that you should account the first church as your brothers in Christ.

LA
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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I suppose when LA comes to a point where she "outsmarts" herself, she'll close this thread of hers? Oh, wait a second, that's not even possible. Silly me.

By the way LA, where's all your proof that MADs misinterpret Scripture?? I guess you'll try and find the time to post those "Proofs?"

I'll just have to be patient with you.

In the meantime, I've discovered a way to travel to the Sun and not get burned to a cinder. You simply have to travel there at night! :)
 
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Lazy afternoon

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Grosnick Marowbe said:
I suppose when LA comes to a point where she "outsmarts" herself, she'll close this thread of hers? Oh, wait a second, that's not even possible. Silly me.

By the way LA, where's all your proof that MADs misinterpret Scripture?? I guess you'll try and find the time to post those "Proofs?"

I'll just have to be patient with you.

In the meantime, I've discovered a way to travel to the Sun and not get burned to a cinder. You simply have to travel there at night! :)
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You are the star witness that there is something bad about the Mad position.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

LA
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Lazy afternoon said:
The Madist says that such Grace did not begin until Paul.

The cross of Christ bought that Grace and the church of Acts ch 2 enjoyed it.

Act 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
Act 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Act 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.






Abraham had faith with works--

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Madists are saying that Grace will end when Christ returns.

Such is not the case.

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Madism is a contradiction of the Bible and just a pack of lies.

Madism says Christ will rule over the Jews in the Kingdom by the reintroduction of the law.

What a pack of lies.

LA
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You are a mass of confusion about what we believe.
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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Lazy afternoon said:
You are the star witness that there is something bad about the Mad position.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

LA
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And, how are we supposed to use the Scripture you supplied, in order to PROVE your position?
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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It's a little odd that LA leaves us with some random verses of Scripture and expects us to put the puzzle together in order to prove her point? I find her M.O. somewhat lacking.
 
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northwye

New member
"Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal
kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity,
'...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer,
Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp.
315-323..

Chafer says "The nation Israel, God's chosen earthly people, to whom at
least five-sixths of the Bible is addressed and with whom the great
covenants are made (Rom 9:4-5) -- which covenants secure to that nation a
land, a nation, a throne, a King, and a kingdom -- are now scattered
throughout all the nations of the earth (Deut 4:26-28; Deut 28:63-68; Jer
16:13), and are to remain scattered until they (a remnant; ed.) are
gathered into their own land (Deut 30:3-6; Isa 11:11-12; Isa 14:1-3; Isa
60:1-22; Jer 23:6-8; Jer 32:37-44; Jer 33:7-9; Eze 37:21-25; Mic 4:6-8)
under the reign of Christ Jesus at His return."

Lewis S. Chafer refers to physical Israel as God's earthy chosen people.

Charles C. Ryrie (born 1925) says:
"basic promise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed
in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction
throughout eternity." Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today,1966, pp.44-45.

The founders of dispensationalism which became Christian Zionism, hijacking the evangelical church, did not start from scripture. They merely made assertions, for example, that God now has two peoples, implying that there are two groups of saved people.

The first big mistake they made is that New Testament scripture plainly says that there is one fold, or one Body of Christ. They ignore or sidestep the issue when they are reminded that John 10: 16 says there is one fold, that Romans 12: 4-5 says there is one Body of Christ and Ephesians 4: 4 says the same thing.

They depend upon their view of Romans 11: 25-26 a great deal. Yet a doctrine as important as what they claim Romans 11: 25-26 means - that God will select those to be saved on the basis of their physical DNA after the completion of the salvation of the Gentiles - would find some explicit support elsewhere in the New Testament and maybe also in the Old Testament. Where is that support? Dispensationalist-Zionists think it is in some Old Testament texts on the restoration of Israel, but look at what even James does with one of those texts in Acts 15: 14-17, and says the prophets, plural, not just Amos 9: 11-12, which James quotes, but all the prophets of the Old Testament on the restoration of Israel are saying that Israel was remade in Christ. James, in spite of his bragging to Paul in Acts 21: 20-21 that there were then thousands of Jews who believed and were zealous of the law, did not interpret Amos 9: 11-12 as being a restoration of parts of the Old Covenant system.

Lewis S. Chafer said that dispensationalism has
"...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting
writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both
the earthly and heavenly purposes of God, which reach on into eternity
to come.." Lewis. S. Chafer, ‘Dispensationalism,’ Bibliotheca Sacra, 93
(October 1936), 410, 416, 446-447

So, to Chafer, scripture was a mass of conflicting writings until John Darby, C.I. Scofield and himself fixed its interpretation to fit dispensatinalist-Zionist doctrine.

Dispensationalist-Zionists use many specific tactics of the sidestep. The sidestep can be a tactic of the dialectic, and the dialectic is an argument in direct opposition to that which is absolute truth or absolute morality, of which scripture is the only certain example. Some laws in physics, like the law of gravity, are examples of absolute truth, though not as absolute as the word of God,.
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

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hey MAD, Jesus told the church in Revelation to be zealous, repent and do works!

It's the kingdom gospel!
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

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So are Jesus and Paul at odds with each other over their presentation of the gospel?

And remember this is how Jesus defined works -

I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first Rev. 2:19
 
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Danoh

New member
Epoisses said:
So are Jesus and Paul at odds with each other over their presentation of the gospel?

And remember this is how Jesus defined works -

I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first Rev. 2:19
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Nope - YOU are at odds with Jesus and Paul.
 
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