I'd hate to go through life without a sense of humor. And, they say that "Ignorance is bliss." If that's the case, LA must be the happiest person on planet earth, you'd think?
The verses dispys misinterpret--
- Thread starter Lazy afternoon
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I think LA would rather be caught in an elevator with several Skunks than be in my presence here on TOL?
Well, I've said my piece, I'll let somebody else opine.
As" Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend" Proverbs 27:17.
GM, you are going to have to find a way to forgive me this - a Dispensation is not a period of time.
Rather, it is that which is dispensed, or doled out.
That said dispensing ends up taking up a period of time is unavoidable.
But it is not the period of time itself that is the Dispensation.
Run down to Home Depot and have a gallon of paint mixed for you.
During the period of time that their paint mix Dispenser is Dispensing the paint mix (Dispensation) that you wanted; its' little window reads "Dispensing..."
A Dispensation - that which is being Dispensed - necessarily ends up taking place within a period of time, but is not a period of time.
This was why the various Apostles in Scripture did not know when what would start and or end...
My apology...
You know me by now; I refuse to belong to any group that is for ever publicly addressing the mistakes of others; while skirting the practice with its' own; and or skirts acceptance of the practice from its' own.
Allowing oneself to be a party to that kind of a thing is a sure way to remain stagnant in one's understanding.
Next thing one knows; one has ended up not only off base on one thing or another; but no longer open to the often needed iron sharpeneth iron of a friend.
Said friend perceived thru that mess as an enemy.
Look thru the history of various ugly splits within very schools of thought - including within Mid-Acts.
What you'll find as a recurrent pattern throughout, is this very compromise as its root cause.
Because he who rests...rusts...and still waters...become stale...
Nothing like opposition - even from within - to get one to thinking a thing through once more, if...one is fortunate to realize opposition's potential blessing, in hindsight.
GM, you are going to have to find a way to forgive me this - a Dispensation is not a period of time.
Rather, it is that which is dispensed, or doled out.
That said dispensing ends up taking up a period of time is unavoidable.
But it is not the period of time itself that is the Dispensation.
Run down to Home Depot and have a gallon of paint mixed for you.
During the period of time that their paint mix Dispenser is Dispensing the paint mix (Dispensation) that you wanted; its' little window reads "Dispensing..."
A Dispensation - that which is being Dispensed - necessarily ends up taking place within a period of time, but is not a period of time.
This was why the various Apostles in Scripture did not know when what would start and or end...
My apology...
You know me by now; I refuse to belong to any group that is for ever publicly addressing the mistakes of others; while skirting the practice with its' own; and or skirts acceptance of the practice from its' own.
Allowing oneself to be a party to that kind of a thing is a sure way to remain stagnant in one's understanding.
Next thing one knows; one has ended up not only off base on one thing or another; but no longer open to the often needed iron sharpeneth iron of a friend.
Said friend perceived thru that mess as an enemy.
Look thru the history of various ugly splits within very schools of thought - including within Mid-Acts.
What you'll find as a recurrent pattern throughout, is this very compromise as its root cause.
Because he who rests...rusts...and still waters...become stale...
Nothing like opposition - even from within - to get one to thinking a thing through once more, if...one is fortunate to realize opposition's potential blessing, in hindsight.
Having said that, do you believe that this "Dispensation of Grace" will end at some point?
One description of the word "Dispensation" is: "a system of order, government, or organization of a nation, community, etc., especially as existing at a particular time.
That's a good question...
Depends on one's understanding of the Mystery in contrast to Israel's interruption...
Admittedly, I don't go by dictionaries and such too much.
I tend to do word studies in the Word itself; studying there how it uses words; that kind of thing.
I find that commentaries and other books about Scripture tend to not completely rely on how Scripture wants us to apply our God given gift in Adam - the gift of logic and intuition.
A logic and intuition that is to be informed by, and based on, the Word.
And as you know - the Word rightly divided this side of, and in light of, that which is perfect: the full revelation of the Mystery.
We all ended up in our mess when Adam and Eve allowed themselves to be swayed into applying said gift outside of God's Word to them...
Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
That; in contrast to...
Matthew 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
In both cases; logic and intuition were relied on.
At the same time, the frame of reference within which said logic and intuition were applied...greatly differed.
It always come back to - the things that differ.
I find that ever fascinating...
beameup
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oikonomia - οἰκονομία
1 Corinthians 9:17 - a dispensation G3622 of the gospel is committed unto me.
Ephesians 1:10 - That in the dispensation G3622 of the fullness of times
Ephesians 3:2 - If ye have heard of the dispensation G3622 of the grace of God which is given me
Colossians 1:25 - Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation G3622 of God
Acts 9 ---> rapture = the dispensation of the Gospel of Grace, through Faith, without Works and the dispensation of the assembling of the Body of Christ.
No offense intended Danoh, however, it seems like we're dealing with Semantics here. One could also say: "Dispensationalism is a method of interpreting history that divides God’s work and purposes toward mankind into different periods of time."
No offense intended Danoh, however, it seems like we're dealing with Semantics here. One could also say: "Dispensationalism is a method of interpreting history that divides God’s work and purposes toward mankind into different periods of time." Relating to post #25 on this thread.
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." After the "Fullness of the Gentiles" comes into the Body of Christ, the blindness of Israel will be removed. " Romans 11: 25
The interpretation that when all the Gentiles God intends to save are saved, then the blindness of those of the physical bloodline will be removed depends on the translation of the Greek word αχρις, achri. It also depends on how the key Greek word is used in other scriptures. If the interpretation is only by a theology, then it is more likely to be wrong, and here is an important place where you can go wrong.
"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." II Peter 3: 15-16
In Acts 2; 29, "...let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." Unto is translated from achri. "εξον ειπειν μετα παρρησιας προς υμας περι του πατριαρχου δαβιδ οτι και ετελευτησεν και εταφη και το μνημα αυτου εστιν εν ημιν αχρι της ημερας ταυτης"
"His tomb is with us unto this day" does not mean his tomb is no longer with us when this day occurs.
"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." Hebrews 3: 13. While is from αχρις. achrai.
"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:" Revelation 2: 26. Unto is from αχρι, achri.
Unto can mean to. That is, achri can be translated as to as well as until. The word can mean that an action is ongoing until a point is reached when the action stops as is the dispensationalist-Christian Zionist interpretation of Romans 11: 15. Or, achri can mean that an action can go on until some completion or termination is reached. This is the way achri is used in Revelation 2: 26, "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end..." Unto is from achri.
That is, blindness goes on to a part of those of the bloodline unto the completeness of the people (ethnos) happens, or is reached. Blindness goes on till the end.
"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24: 14 - nations is from εθνεσιν, a form of ethnos. Ethnos could be translated as people. Paul in Romans 11: 25 is adding something to this doctrine, that when the Gospel is preached to all people intended to hear it, then the end comes. Paul is adding this : "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;"
He is saying those of the bloodline should not be arrogant and not know that a part of them receive blindness.
How big a part of the people of the bloodline receive blindness? He does not tell us in Romans 11: 15, but scripture interprets scripture and he does tell us in Romans 11: 1-5. He says a remnant according to the election of grace exists at the time he wrote. Since a remnant is not blinded, then a larger group is blinded, the multitude.
"...blindness in part is happened to Israel, unto (αχρις) the reaching (εισελθη)
of the completion (πληρωμα) of the people (εθνων). "οτι πωρωσις απο μερους τω ισραηλ γεγονεν αχρις ου το πληρωμα των εθνων εισελθη" .Romans 11: 25
The interpretation that when all the Gentiles God intends to save are saved, then the blindness of those of the physical bloodline will be removed depends on the translation of the Greek word αχρις, achri. It also depends on how the key Greek word is used in other scriptures. If the interpretation is only by a theology, then it is more likely to be wrong, and here is an important place where you can go wrong.
"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." II Peter 3: 15-16
In Acts 2; 29, "...let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." Unto is translated from achri. "εξον ειπειν μετα παρρησιας προς υμας περι του πατριαρχου δαβιδ οτι και ετελευτησεν και εταφη και το μνημα αυτου εστιν εν ημιν αχρι της ημερας ταυτης"
"His tomb is with us unto this day" does not mean his tomb is no longer with us when this day occurs.
"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." Hebrews 3: 13. While is from αχρις. achrai.
"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:" Revelation 2: 26. Unto is from αχρι, achri.
Unto can mean to. That is, achri can be translated as to as well as until. The word can mean that an action is ongoing until a point is reached when the action stops as is the dispensationalist-Christian Zionist interpretation of Romans 11: 15. Or, achri can mean that an action can go on until some completion or termination is reached. This is the way achri is used in Revelation 2: 26, "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end..." Unto is from achri.
That is, blindness goes on to a part of those of the bloodline unto the completeness of the people (ethnos) happens, or is reached. Blindness goes on till the end.
"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24: 14 - nations is from εθνεσιν, a form of ethnos. Ethnos could be translated as people. Paul in Romans 11: 25 is adding something to this doctrine, that when the Gospel is preached to all people intended to hear it, then the end comes. Paul is adding this : "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;"
He is saying those of the bloodline should not be arrogant and not know that a part of them receive blindness.
How big a part of the people of the bloodline receive blindness? He does not tell us in Romans 11: 15, but scripture interprets scripture and he does tell us in Romans 11: 1-5. He says a remnant according to the election of grace exists at the time he wrote. Since a remnant is not blinded, then a larger group is blinded, the multitude.
"...blindness in part is happened to Israel, unto (αχρις) the reaching (εισελθη)
of the completion (πληρωμα) of the people (εθνων). "οτι πωρωσις απο μερους τω ισραηλ γεγονεν αχρις ου το πληρωμα των εθνων εισελθη" .Romans 11: 25
That appears to be more the definition of the Acts 2 Dispys.
Just sayin...
And no - no offence taken.
In my understanding the "in part" of "the blindness" (or hardening) "in part" refers not to a contrast between the remaining potentially believing remnant of Israel and those of that nation in unbelief, but to the temporary nature of that - until the fulness of the Gentiles become in.
And the fullness of the Gentiles refers to the fulness of what God is doing among the Gentiles.
When God has accomplised all that He is doing among the Gentiles.
Salvation of the Gentile directly - rather than through Israel - is only one aspect of what God is doing among the Gentiles.
And the fullness of the Gentiles refers to the fulness of what God is doing among the Gentiles.
When God has accomplised all that He is doing among the Gentiles.
Salvation of the Gentile directly - rather than through Israel - is only one aspect of what God is doing among the Gentiles.
Are you making an assumption that I'm an Acts 2 Dispensationalist? If you are I take great umbrage at that accusation.
Consider that just because one comes to hold to Mid-Acts that alone does not make either remaining Acts 2 Dispy distinctions unawares, and or Acts 2 Dispy distinctions that have crept in unawares, automatically disappear.
I'm not an Acts 2 Dispensationalist and because of your rather annoying PM I've placed you on permanent ignore. You could have PMed me with your feelings that I should be corrected. Instead, you made it public. You won't do that to me again so that I can see it anyway.
What ever you; your kind; and your enablers.
YOU pm'd me; I explained myself and apologized - despite your obvious childisness then too.
And a pm is just that - a pm. Don't agree to one by sending one if you can't honor the obvious agreement that such things are private.
Get some class you and yours :chuckle:
And learn to take as good as you give - grow up in Him; your vanity is not the issue.
:doh:
Let's see now...so far, how many of these so called gospel of the grace of God - in word only - MADs on TOL view this fellow MAD as their enemy in their duplicity.
O wait; I could not care less; I am not the issue :chuckle:
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The Madist says that such Grace did not begin until Paul.
The cross of Christ bought that Grace and the church of Acts ch 2 enjoyed it.
Act 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
Act 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Act 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Abraham had faith with works--
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Madists are saying that Grace will end when Christ returns.
Such is not the case.
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
Madism is a contradiction of the Bible and just a pack of lies.
Madism says Christ will rule over the Jews in the Kingdom by the reintroduction of the law.
What a pack of lies.
LA
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