genuineoriginal
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There are only 8 references to two witnesses.
the two witnesses
- Thread starter chrysostom
- Start date
There are only 8 references to two witnesses.
There is usually a clue, though sometimes subtle, indicating that a text is in the language of metaphor, and its deep layer of meaning is not literal. In Revelation 11: 7 the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit makes war against the two witnesses and kills them. Scripture must be interpreted by relevant scripture, following Isaiah 28: 10. In Revelation 9: 1-3 the bottomless pit is opened and in Revelation 9: 11 the locust-scorpions that come out of the pit have a king over them, Abaddon, or Apollyon. This is the beast that is said in Revelation 11: 7 to kill the two witnesses. But this beast is a supernatural being, a fallen angel. Fallen angels are interested in killing man's spirit from God, and they themselves are not seen in scripture taking physical form and literally killing people physically. This indicates Revelation 11 on the Two Witnesses is heavily metaphoric.
The statement in Revelation 11: 8 that the dead bodies of the two witnesses are to lie in the street of that great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified is in no way literal. Its an interesting metaphor. That great city could be seen in Galatians 4: 25, Jerusalem which is below and is in bondage with her children. But its not Jerusalem of the Old Covenant; its a "Jerusalem" in the New Covenant timeline, in which Jesus Christ does not dwell.
Then, in Revelation 11: 11 the Spirit of God enters into the two witnesses, who were killed by the beast or angel out of the bottomless pit. They come to live spiritually. Making them two literal men or groups of people or institutions of men deprives Revelation 11 of its message, and knowledge is rejected, as in Hosea 4: 6, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee..."
The statement in Revelation 11: 8 that the dead bodies of the two witnesses are to lie in the street of that great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified is in no way literal. Its an interesting metaphor. That great city could be seen in Galatians 4: 25, Jerusalem which is below and is in bondage with her children. But its not Jerusalem of the Old Covenant; its a "Jerusalem" in the New Covenant timeline, in which Jesus Christ does not dwell.
Then, in Revelation 11: 11 the Spirit of God enters into the two witnesses, who were killed by the beast or angel out of the bottomless pit. They come to live spiritually. Making them two literal men or groups of people or institutions of men deprives Revelation 11 of its message, and knowledge is rejected, as in Hosea 4: 6, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee..."
CherubRam
New member
:doh: How did you reason that the Two Witnesses are the church and state?
There are four anthropon-man-face countenances just as there are four generations to the first age of every man in Messiah, like the four seasons in a full year; autumn, winter, spring, and the summer of your harvest. Two of the countenance-faces must breathe out his last, for so it is written, "Strike the Shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, (for the man is the land) says YHWH, that two parts therein shall be cut off and breathe his last: but the third part shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on My Name, and I will hear them. I will say, It is my people, and they shall say, YHWH is my Elohim." So the four faces commence with a fourth part given over unto Thanatos, (Revelation 6) then the third part, (Revelation 9) then there be two, (2 Corinthians 12:1-4, Revelation 11). Perhaps then if these things have not yet come to pass in your walk, (each in his or her own appointed times and none shall be alone in his appointed times) then when you get down to just the two in your Garden-Paradise, one day of those days you will hear the words, "Anabatehode!", (one of you to the third heaven and one to the Paradise) even as Paul learned it from the Revelation of Yeshua, (11). And this is either with Torah or without; for when the nations not having the law do by nature the things of the law, those not having the law are unto themselves a law, who show forth the work of the law written in their hearts: the inner law jointly witnessing-testifying together with their own conscience unto themselves, and between one another the resulting thoughts Accusing them, (being their own Accuser) or even making a defense in The Day when Elohim shall judge the secrets of men according to the good message I have received through the Revelation of Messiah Yeshua. No one outsmarts the Great Psychologist who makes us all, (and He makes us twain, like Esau and Jacob, from the one selfsame lump of clay: one a vessel of spirit appointed unto destruction and the other a vessel of spirit appointed unto honor).
Is there one more commonly used Catholic "hermeneutic " used for interpreting Bible prophecy, among some other methods of interpretation. One system of prophecy interpretation supposedly used by the Catholics is called amillennialism.
Origen made use of broad allegory in interpreting Scripture, and
Augustine followed his lead, saying the thousand year reign of Christ
in Revelation 20: 1-8 is an allegory of all the church age. Catholics
and traditional Calvinists do the same and also say the 144,000 of
Revelation 7 and 14 are merely the saved people of the entire church
age.
In Augustine's interpretation of metaphors, visions, and symbols in the
Book of Revelation an event that is predicted to happen in the future
is made into a broad sweeping timeless allegory. In the Amillennial
view the sealing by the Lord of the 144,000 right before the "four
winds" are allowed to blow (Revelation 7: 1) is made to represent all
the saved people of all ages. So for Augustine,and Calvin following him,
followers the 144,000 can have no function
during the period Christ called the great tribulation in Matthew 24:
21. In fact, in strict Amillennialism, there is to be no period of
the tribulation. In Revelation 7: 1 the "four winds of the earth"
represent the tribulation period.
When over-allegorizing is applied to end time Bible prophecy,
making it into broad timeless teachings, the more specific metaphors, for example, in the Book of Revelation, are lost. In Revelation
there are many specific metaphors, such as the serpents and lucust-scorpions of Chapter 9. For example, for Origen the seven heads of the dragon of Revelation 17: 7 became the seven deadly sins.
Dispensationalism reacted against this more abstract kind of over-allegorization of the Catholics and of many Calvinists too. dispensationalism starts from the postulate that the Bible
must be interpreted literally and each verse given a meaning
consistent with plain
language. Dispensationalism avoids or tries to diminish metaphoric interpretations, and avoids "spiritualizing" a prophecy.
The site http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/es...william-e-cox/
says "Dispensationalists boast of literal interpretation of
Scripture, and cast aspersions at those who spiritualize some
passages of the Bible. Charles C. Ryrie, President of The Philadelphia
College of the Bible, says: (Bibliotheca Sacra, Vol. 114, July, 1957,
p. 254), only dispensationalism provides the key to consistent
literalism."
How would Catholic amillennialism deal with the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11? Would it not disregard the future orientation of this prophecy in the Book of Revelation and make the Two Witnesses into more timeless entities?
And - is not saying that the two witnesses are the church and the state a kind of "literal" interpretation of the heavily metaphoric language in Revelation 11?
The Two who witness, from the Greek word martusin, from martus, or the two martyrs, are also metaphoric for something. The surface meaning might be that they are killed because of their faith, but is that really what is going on, since Revelation 11: 7 says the beast from the bottomless pit, a fallen angel, is to kill them (spiritually)?
Starting an interpretation of Revelation 11 from the idea that the two witnesses are something literal, like two guys, or two man-made institutions, the church and the state, leads to understandings that reject the knowledge provided in the metaphoric language.
Instead, start from Revelation 11: 7-10, on the killing of the two witnesses and that their dead bodies are to lie in the street of that Jerusalem of Galatians 4: 25, spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, and people are to rejoice over them.
Then go on to Revelation 11: 11-12 where the Spirit of God enters the two witnesses and they are made alive spiritually. But for dispensationalism this is "spiritualizing" the text. Saying the two witnesses are the church and the state, - a Catholic interpretation - might also reject this "spiitualizing" of the text and prefer the more literal view.
Origen made use of broad allegory in interpreting Scripture, and
Augustine followed his lead, saying the thousand year reign of Christ
in Revelation 20: 1-8 is an allegory of all the church age. Catholics
and traditional Calvinists do the same and also say the 144,000 of
Revelation 7 and 14 are merely the saved people of the entire church
age.
In Augustine's interpretation of metaphors, visions, and symbols in the
Book of Revelation an event that is predicted to happen in the future
is made into a broad sweeping timeless allegory. In the Amillennial
view the sealing by the Lord of the 144,000 right before the "four
winds" are allowed to blow (Revelation 7: 1) is made to represent all
the saved people of all ages. So for Augustine,and Calvin following him,
followers the 144,000 can have no function
during the period Christ called the great tribulation in Matthew 24:
21. In fact, in strict Amillennialism, there is to be no period of
the tribulation. In Revelation 7: 1 the "four winds of the earth"
represent the tribulation period.
When over-allegorizing is applied to end time Bible prophecy,
making it into broad timeless teachings, the more specific metaphors, for example, in the Book of Revelation, are lost. In Revelation
there are many specific metaphors, such as the serpents and lucust-scorpions of Chapter 9. For example, for Origen the seven heads of the dragon of Revelation 17: 7 became the seven deadly sins.
Dispensationalism reacted against this more abstract kind of over-allegorization of the Catholics and of many Calvinists too. dispensationalism starts from the postulate that the Bible
must be interpreted literally and each verse given a meaning
consistent with plain
language. Dispensationalism avoids or tries to diminish metaphoric interpretations, and avoids "spiritualizing" a prophecy.
The site http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/es...william-e-cox/
says "Dispensationalists boast of literal interpretation of
Scripture, and cast aspersions at those who spiritualize some
passages of the Bible. Charles C. Ryrie, President of The Philadelphia
College of the Bible, says: (Bibliotheca Sacra, Vol. 114, July, 1957,
p. 254), only dispensationalism provides the key to consistent
literalism."
How would Catholic amillennialism deal with the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11? Would it not disregard the future orientation of this prophecy in the Book of Revelation and make the Two Witnesses into more timeless entities?
And - is not saying that the two witnesses are the church and the state a kind of "literal" interpretation of the heavily metaphoric language in Revelation 11?
The Two who witness, from the Greek word martusin, from martus, or the two martyrs, are also metaphoric for something. The surface meaning might be that they are killed because of their faith, but is that really what is going on, since Revelation 11: 7 says the beast from the bottomless pit, a fallen angel, is to kill them (spiritually)?
Starting an interpretation of Revelation 11 from the idea that the two witnesses are something literal, like two guys, or two man-made institutions, the church and the state, leads to understandings that reject the knowledge provided in the metaphoric language.
Instead, start from Revelation 11: 7-10, on the killing of the two witnesses and that their dead bodies are to lie in the street of that Jerusalem of Galatians 4: 25, spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, and people are to rejoice over them.
Then go on to Revelation 11: 11-12 where the Spirit of God enters the two witnesses and they are made alive spiritually. But for dispensationalism this is "spiritualizing" the text. Saying the two witnesses are the church and the state, - a Catholic interpretation - might also reject this "spiitualizing" of the text and prefer the more literal view.
CherubRam
New member
They have done lost it. I feel like I am talking to lunatics.
"And I saw seats, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God: which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had taken his mark upon their foreheads, or on their hands: and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20: 4 Tyndale New Testament, 1526
"And I saw seats; and they sat upon them; and judgment was given unto them; and the souls of them that were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not adored the beast nor his image, nor received his character on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. " Revelation 20: 4 Douay-Rheims
What is the beast that Revelation 20: 4 says those who reign with Christ had not worshiped the image of nor had taken his mark? Again, scripture interprets scripture according to Isaiah 28: 10, and scripture should not be interpreted by a tradition of men, Catholicism or dispensationalism.
"And he did all that the first beast could do in his presence, and he caused the earth, and them which dwell therein, to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed." Revelation 13: 13
"He" is the second beast of Revelation 13, usually called the False Prophet, but not one man; he represents the many false prophets of Matthew 24: 11. The beast whose deadly wound was healed is in Revelation 13: 3, "And I saw one of his heads as it were slain to death: and his death's wound was healed. And all the earth was in admiration after the beast"
As is often true in the Book of Revelation what opens up the identity of the first beast is subtle. " And the beast which I saw, was like a cat of the mountain, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his seat, and great authority:" Revelation 13: 2 The leopard (cat), the bear and the lion empires are found in Daniel 7. The fourth beast empire there, very powerful and strong, is not listed in Revelation 13: 2. Associated with the four beast empires in Daniel 7 is the Little Horn of Daniel 7: 8, which follows in sequence the four beast empires of Daniel 7:4-7.
And yet again the clue which identifies the beast empires of Daniel 7 as being after the Cross is in Daniel 7: 12, "As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time." Remember that in history before the Cross the Persian empire replaced the Babylonian empire, the Greek empire replaced the Persian empire and the Roman empire replaced the Greek empire.
But in the timeline after the cross the four empires seen in Daniel 7 - and the Little Horn - do not replace one another. The Russian bear empire - the Old Soviet Union - did not replace the British empire, nor did the Nazi German leopard empire replace the Russian bear. The fourth empire, dreadful, terrible and strong, the U.S. as the national security state did not replace these three previous empires. And when the British empire rose after the defeat of the Spanish Armada, it did not replace the Spanish empire, but the Spanish empire continued though it was not dominant any more.
The beast that those who reign with Christ, whether metaphoric or literal, did not worship or take the mark of is the Little Horn of Daniel 7: 8, which appears along with the four post Cross empires there. It has the spirit of anti-Christ, but is not a man; its a country.
"And I saw seats; and they sat upon them; and judgment was given unto them; and the souls of them that were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not adored the beast nor his image, nor received his character on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. " Revelation 20: 4 Douay-Rheims
What is the beast that Revelation 20: 4 says those who reign with Christ had not worshiped the image of nor had taken his mark? Again, scripture interprets scripture according to Isaiah 28: 10, and scripture should not be interpreted by a tradition of men, Catholicism or dispensationalism.
"And he did all that the first beast could do in his presence, and he caused the earth, and them which dwell therein, to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed." Revelation 13: 13
"He" is the second beast of Revelation 13, usually called the False Prophet, but not one man; he represents the many false prophets of Matthew 24: 11. The beast whose deadly wound was healed is in Revelation 13: 3, "And I saw one of his heads as it were slain to death: and his death's wound was healed. And all the earth was in admiration after the beast"
As is often true in the Book of Revelation what opens up the identity of the first beast is subtle. " And the beast which I saw, was like a cat of the mountain, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his seat, and great authority:" Revelation 13: 2 The leopard (cat), the bear and the lion empires are found in Daniel 7. The fourth beast empire there, very powerful and strong, is not listed in Revelation 13: 2. Associated with the four beast empires in Daniel 7 is the Little Horn of Daniel 7: 8, which follows in sequence the four beast empires of Daniel 7:4-7.
And yet again the clue which identifies the beast empires of Daniel 7 as being after the Cross is in Daniel 7: 12, "As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time." Remember that in history before the Cross the Persian empire replaced the Babylonian empire, the Greek empire replaced the Persian empire and the Roman empire replaced the Greek empire.
But in the timeline after the cross the four empires seen in Daniel 7 - and the Little Horn - do not replace one another. The Russian bear empire - the Old Soviet Union - did not replace the British empire, nor did the Nazi German leopard empire replace the Russian bear. The fourth empire, dreadful, terrible and strong, the U.S. as the national security state did not replace these three previous empires. And when the British empire rose after the defeat of the Spanish Armada, it did not replace the Spanish empire, but the Spanish empire continued though it was not dominant any more.
The beast that those who reign with Christ, whether metaphoric or literal, did not worship or take the mark of is the Little Horn of Daniel 7: 8, which appears along with the four post Cross empires there. It has the spirit of anti-Christ, but is not a man; its a country.
answer the question
no answer
genuineoriginal
New member
Revelation 19:15 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. |
it doesn't say reign of Christ
the two witnesses
are
the church and state of the byzantine empire
are
the church and state of the byzantine empire
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
:chuckle:
CherubRam
New member
Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
are you with Christ?