ECT The Throne of David

I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Lazy afternoon said:
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

LA
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The KJV is great here. "he seeing this..." THIS! THIS! THIS!
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
By the words of the Prophet Haggai we can see what might be described as a "principle of continuity" in the history of the temple. The temple that stood at the time of the Lord could be leveled to the ground and then be rebuilt and still be considered the same temple. At the time of the rebuilding of the temple after it had been destroyed, Haggi says:

"Who is left among you that saw this house in its former glory?" (Hag.2:3).​

The Lord of hosts says, "The latter splendor of this house shall be greater than the former"(v.9).

So a rebuilt temple can be considered a continuation of the two preceding temples according to the words of the LORD. Therefore, there is nothing said at 2 Samuel 7:12-16 that indicates that we should not believe that those verses willbe fulfullied literally.

After all, the LORD said that He would not "alter" the promises which He made to David. If you think that He did then let us see your evidence.
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All that addresses is identity - not continuity. That the temple was to be the place of God's habitation would never have been in question. But whether He would have had an earthly house in an unbroken line is a different thing altogether. The promise to David wasn't that he would always have a throne, but that the Judaic kingdom would be established eternally.

If you ask me, I don't know that the promise was unconditional and irrevocable for the following reasons :

1. There were several instances in which it seems as though this promise could have been conditioned on Israel's faithfulness (I Kings 2:1-4, I Kings 8:25, Psalm 89:29-37 etc...)
2. Jesus even said it was taken from them

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Matthew 21:43

As per the Abrahamic covenant (and to seed - singular) and the everlasting kingdom promised to David and the stone kingdom of Daniel 2:44, the heart of this Kingdom is not physical but spiritual. It's real King is (and always has been) Christ

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Genesis 49:10
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
nikolai_42 said:
All that addresses is identity - not continuity. That the temple was to be the place of God's habitation would never have been in question. But whether He would have had an earthly house in an unbroken line is a different thing altogether. The promise to David wasn't that he would always have a throne, but that the Judaic kingdom would be established eternally.

If you ask me, I don't know that the promise was unconditional and irrevocable for the following reasons :

1. There were several instances in which it seems as though this promise could have been conditioned on Israel's faithfulness (I Kings 2:1-4, I Kings 8:25, Psalm 89:29-37 etc...)
2. Jesus even said it was taken from them

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Matthew 21:43

As per the Abrahamic covenant (and to seed - singular) and the everlasting kingdom promised to David and the stone kingdom of Daniel 2:44, the heart of this Kingdom is not physical but spiritual. It's real King is (and always has been) Christ

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Genesis 49:10
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The temple is the continuing place of the throne in question: but it is the living temple in Christ. That's what Eph 2B is saying. The problem is 2P2P has only bit pieces of verses, and doesn't know what the whole paragraph of Eph 2B is saying in relation to thrones, temples.
 
Right Divider

Right Divider

Body part
nikolai_42 said:
All that addresses is identity - not continuity. That the temple was to be the place of God's habitation would never have been in question. But whether He would have had an earthly house in an unbroken line is a different thing altogether. The promise to David wasn't that he would always have a throne, but that the Judaic kingdom would be established eternally.

If you ask me, I don't know that the promise was unconditional and irrevocable for the following reasons :

1. There were several instances in which it seems as though this promise could have been conditioned on Israel's faithfulness (I Kings 2:1-4, I Kings 8:25, Psalm 89:29-37 etc...)
2. Jesus even said it was taken from them

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Matthew 21:43

As per the Abrahamic covenant (and to seed - singular) and the everlasting kingdom promised to David and the stone kingdom of Daniel 2:44, the heart of this Kingdom is not physical but spiritual. It's real King is (and always has been) Christ

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Genesis 49:10
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Luke 12:32 (AKJV/PCE)​
(12:32) Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
​

You're using half-truths to try to make scripture fit your story.

Believe the scripture instead.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Lazy afternoon said:
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
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Again, you are so blind that you cannot even see the difference between the Lord Jesus' throne and the throne of the Father:

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne" (Rev.3:21).​

The throne of David is a throne which the Lord Jesus will not share with the Father because that throne belongs to Him alone:

"He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end" (Lk.1:32,33).​

If we are to believe your silly ideas we must believe that the throne of David was given to the Lord Jesus and He alone will reign from that throne but now that throne is no longer His because He is now sitting on the throne of the Father.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
nikolai_42 said:
If you ask me, I don't know that the promise was unconditional and irrevocable for the following reasons :

1. There were several instances in which it seems as though this promise could have been conditioned on Israel's faithfulness (I Kings 2:1-4, I Kings 8:25, Psalm 89:29-37 etc...)
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Let us look at these verses which you cite:

"If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me" (Ps.89:30-36).​

What is said here proves that the promises which the LORD made to David were not conditioned on Israel's faithfulness, as you imagine. In fact, it proves that the idea that the throne of David was changed from an earthly one to a heavenly one is nothing but a fable.

The LORD said that He will NOT ALTER the promises which He made to David so since the throne of David was originally an earthly one it will remain an earthly one. To say otherwise is to say that the LORD lied when He made that promise to David.

Now a question for you. Why should anyone believe that the throne of David was changed from being an earthly throne to being a heavenly one since the LORD said that He would NOT ALTER the promises which He made to David?
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
Let us look at these verses which you cite:

"If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me" (Ps.89:30-36).​

What is said here proves that the promises which the LORD made to David were not conditioned on Israel's faithfulness, as you imagine. In fact, it proves that the idea that the throne of David was changed from an earthly one to a heavenly one is nothing but a fable.

The LORD said that He will NOT ALTER the promises which He made to David so since the throne of David was originally an earthly one it will remain an earthly one. To say otherwise is to say that the LORD lied when He made that promise to David.

Now a question for you. Why should anyone believe that the throne of David was changed from being an earthly throne to being a heavenly one since the LORD said that He would NOT ALTER the promises which He made to David?
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Jerry,
it just makes no sense.
You quote a psalm during the monarchy. The kingdom collapses.
the kingdom tries like rigor mortis to make itself happen in the 1st century and is destroyed.
the 'answer' is supposedly the millenium which is going to fail and give way to the NHNE, or else is about the reign of Christ now.
the reign of Christ spoken of in Acts (foreseen by David) will never fail; it is the unshakeable kingdom of heb 12 which lasts no matter what happens to this creation. It is also the one mentioned in Daniel.

He didnt' alter the promises, he fulfilled them in Christ. The temple itself is the living one in Eph 2B.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
He didnt' alter the promises, he fulfilled them in Christ.
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From the very beginning the throne of David and the Davidic kingdom were both earthly in nature, as witnessed by the following words:

"Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly" (1 Ki. 2:12).​

Solomon sat upon the throne of David on the earth and his kingdom which was established was one which was earthly.Now let us look at the Lord's promises made to David in regard to that throne and kingdom:

"I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever...And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever" (2 Sam.7:12-13).​

Since the throne and the kingdom were both "earthly" in nature then we can know that God established the earthly throne and the earthly kingdom FOR EVER. God also said that He would not "alter" the promises which He made to David:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).​

You say that God did "alter" His promise to David because the "throne of David" was changed from an earthly throne into a heavenly one. According to you God did lie when He promised David that He would not "alter" his promises.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
From the very beginning the throne of David and the Davidic kingdom were both earthly in nature, as witnessed by the following words:

"Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly" (1 Ki. 2:12).​

Solomon sat upon the throne of David on the earth and his kingdom which was established was one which was earthly.Now let us look at the Lord's promises made to David in regard to that throne and kingdom:

"I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever...And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever" (2 Sam.7:12-13).​

Since the throne and the kingdom were both "earthly" in nature then we can know that God established the earthly throne and the earthly kingdom FOR EVER. God also said that He would not "alter" the promises which He made to David:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).​

You say that God did "alter" His promise to David because the "throne of David" was changed from an earthly throne into a heavenly one. According to you God did lie when He promised David that He would not "alter" his promises.
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Jerry it is a tidy little argument you have put to gether to feel good, but you need to interact with the counter.

1, it is not how Paul answers the God's word failed questions of Rom 3:3 or ch 9.
2, according to you Peter lied about David in Acts 2:30, because David was looking for the resurrection and Acts 13 says the monarchy is not going to happen again (it served its purpose)
3, as usual you never use NT passages. You have no idea why talks between Christ and Judaism ended on 'how then is Messiah David's son?' That changed everything
4, since the Gospel came, there is no need for what you are talking about, that is why there is no interest/attention to it in the NT
5, Acts 13 further says that the things promised to David were transferred to Christ, and quotes Isaiah on that. do we go with Jerry or Paul?
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
Jerry it is a tidy little argument you have put to gether to feel good, but you need to interact with the counter.
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How can you possibly feel good since your whole theology is based on the scurrilous idea that the LORD altered the promises which He made to David and therefore lied to Him?:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).​

Have you no conscience?
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
How can you possibly feel good since your whole theology is based on the scurrilous idea that the LORD altered the promises which He made to David and therefore lied to Him?:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).​

Have you no conscience?
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A belief in that is not at all the core of having a conscience.

Sorry but you're totally mistaken about what is going on:
There is no way for a Davidic monarchy in Jerusalem to go forever anyway. The NHNE changes that.
There is no way for the Jews who died in say the 3rd century or the Holocaust to find what you are saying meaningful. How does it help them?
You have no NT basis for supporting this, that's why you always dig up the OT passages without any quotes by the apostles.
There is NT basis only for showing that David was referring to the enthronement of the resurrection so that the nations would be able to hear the Gospel. If you know the dedication ceremony of the original temple, that mattered a lot to David.
You never deal with the Pauline quote of Isaiah in Acts 13 which says that the promises to David would be transferred to Christ, and of course, why would he deal with it in that sermon? why mention it unless it vitally changes what Israel thought was supposed to happen? Why would the audience have trouble with him in the follow up if he meant nothing about what they thought was going to happen in Israel, which is what you think is going to happen?
The Acts 13 sermon is saying HE DID FULFILL THEM to David in Christ.
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
There is no way for a Davidic monarchy in Jerusalem to go forever anyway. The NHNE changes that.
There is no way for the Jews who died in say the 3rd century or the Holocaust to find what you are saying meaningful. How does it help them?
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Is anything too hard for the LORD?
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
There is no way for a Davidic monarchy in Jerusalem to go forever anyway. The NHNE changes that.
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Please tell me which kindom is spoken of here, a kingdom which will exist prior to the NHNE:

"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet" (1 Cor.15:23-25).​
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
Please tell me which kindom is spoken of here, a kingdom which will exist prior to the NHNE:

"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet" (1 Cor.15:23-25).​
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Christ's kingdom is now and is to be preached exactly as the apostles did. That will one day be surrendered to the Father. In the meanwhile, He (Christ) hopes for all to believe.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
Christ's kingdom is now and is to be preached exactly as the apostles did. That will one day be surrendered to the Father. In the meanwhile, He (Christ) hopes for all to believe.
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The kingdom will not even be near at hand until the Lord Jesus returns to the earth:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).​

After the thousand years of His earthly reign come to an end then He will deliver up the kingdom to the Godhead:

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet" (1 Cor.15:23-25).​
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
The kingdom will not even be near at hand until the Lord Jesus returns to the earth:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).​

After the thousand years of His earthly reign come to an end then He will deliver up the kingdom to the Godhead:

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet" (1 Cor.15:23-25).​
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Yes, it has a future aspect (because of the return), plus there is the conception in most places in the NT that the return was very near, but this does not void the hundred-odd passages that say the kingdom is now, working now, operating now.

Don't tell me that a passage is about the 1000 year earthly reign when that is just a system you are trying to figure out and guess at. There is nothing in the passage that forces it to be that way, so just back off your 2P2P and allow for all options on the table.
 
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