ECT The Throne of David

[Jerry Shugart]

And the covenant with David :

And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
2 Samuel 7:12-16

Solomon built a house for God's name. If we are talking about a rebuilt temple in the last days, then we have a contradiction in which that which is being done by the Jews is in conflict with what is accomplished in Christ

By the words of the Prophet Haggai we can see what might be described as a "principle of continuity" in the history of the temple. The temple that stood at the time of the Lord could be leveled to the ground and then be rebuilt and still be considered the same temple. At the time of the rebuilding of the temple after it had been destroyed, Haggi says:

"Who is left among you that saw this house in its former glory?" (Hag.2:3).​

The Lord of hosts says, "The latter splendor of this house shall be greater than the former"(v.9).

So a rebuilt temple can be considered a continuation of the two preceding temples according to the words of the LORD. Therefore, there is nothing said at 2 Samuel 7:12-16 that indicates that we should not believe that those verses willbe fulfullied literally.

After all, the LORD said that He would not "alter" the promises which He made to David. If you think that He did then let us see your evidence.

 

[Interplanner]

By the words of the Prophet Haggai we can see what might be described as a "principle of continuity" in the history of the temple. The temple that stood at the time of the Lord could be leveled to the ground and then be rebuilt and still be considered the same temple. At the time of the rebuilding of the temple after it had been destroyed, Haggi says:

"Who is left among you that saw this house in its former glory?" (Hag.2:3).​

The Lord of hosts says, "The latter splendor of this house shall be greater than the former"(v.9).

So a rebuilt temple can be considered a continuation of the two preceding temples according to the words of the LORD. Therefore, there is nothing said at 2 Samuel 7:12-16 that indicates that we should not believe that those verses willbe fulfullied literally.

After all, the LORD said that He would not "alter" the promises which He made to David. If you think that He did then let us see your evidence.

The temple Haggai was referring to was Christ. Talk about an alteration!

The evidence you need is Acts 2:30-31 and Eph 1 and 2 on the temple, but you don't want to see it. You don't put 2 and 2 together. Or 3, in which case the 3rd item would be total absence of interest in a land promise in the NT, while the Jerusalem above, the free one, is 'the city which he loves.'

 

[Interplanner]

JerryS:

Jeremiah 18: 3-6: "Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3. Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6. O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel."


Apparently God can do this.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

You don't put 2 and 2 together.

The irony...

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The temple Haggai was referring to was Christ. Talk about an alteration!

The evidence you need is Acts 2:30-31 and Eph 1 and 2 on the temple, but you don't want to see it. You don't put 2 and 2 together. Or 3, in which case the 3rd item would be total absence of interest in a land promise in the NT, while the Jerusalem above, the free one, is 'the city which he loves.'

You just can't help yourself, can you?

You continue to assert that the LORD lied to David when He told him that He would not "alter" the promises He made to him:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).​

You say that God did "alter" His promise to David because the "throne of David" was changed from an earthly throne into a heavenly one.

According to you God did lie when He promised David that He would not "alter" his promises because your teaching is based on the idea that God changed the throne from an earthly one into a heavenly one.

And once finished with your dastardly deed you sit back admiring your work!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

6. O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel."

Apparently God can do this.

Of course He can do anything that He wants to do but because of his Righteousness He keeps His promises:

"(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God) He will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which He sware unto them" (Deut. 4:31).​

"For the LORD will not forsake His people for His great name's sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you His people" (1 Sam.12:22).​

We can understand that in the OT the children of Israel were indeed His special people:

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt" (Deut.7:6-8).​

Your theology is entirely dependent on God breaking the promises which He made to the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

But why should you care?

 

[Right Divider]

Notice the passage in Jeremiah 33 - it certainly starts out talking about a future day, but it then refers directly to the promise God gave David. That appears as a separate word from the Lord.

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.
For thus saith the Lord; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
And the word of the Lord came unto Jeremiah, saying,
Thus saith the Lord; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.
Jeremiah 33:14-22

And the covenant with David :

And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
2 Samuel 7:12-16

Solomon built a house for God's name. If we are talking about a rebuilt temple in the last days, then we have a contradiction in which that which is being done by the Jews is in conflict with what is accomplished in Christ - and so God sets up an "eternal" kingdom (granting that this could imply till the end of time...or not) but if Christ sets up His kingdom in the last day after the manner that many today expect, what does eternal really mean if the original Davidic line was on the throne for several hundred years?

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Genesis 49:10

So you apparently really do think that the LORD is unfaithful in keeping His promises.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Of course He can do anything that He wants to do but because of his Righteousness He keeps His promises:

"(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God) He will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which He sware unto them" (Deut. 4:31).​

"For the LORD will not forsake His people for His great name's sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you His people" (1 Sam.12:22).​

We can understand that in the OT the children of Israel were indeed His special people:

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt" (Deut.7:6-8).​

Your theology is entirely dependent on God breaking the promises which He made to the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

But why should you care?

Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

1Pe 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

 

[Interplanner]

So you apparently really do think that the LORD is unfaithful in keeping His promises.

He says twice they were all kept in Christ.

He explained himself in Mt 21 etc the parable of the vineyard: he is no longer working with those who do not produce the fruit of the kingdom. There is nothing in the parable about coming back with the previous set of workers. There is no interest in the land promise in the NT. I don't know when you'll grasp that: no interest.

 

[Interplanner]

Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

1Pe 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Jerry,
Interesting that you would find the land promise to be the most important indicator of the righteousness of God. Ever read Rom 3:21?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises

In those verses Paul makes reference to the his kinsmen according to the flesh, the Israelites. He also speaks of the "promises" which the LORD gave them. And this refers to one of those promises:

(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God) He will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which He sware unto them" (Deut. 4:31).​

"For the LORD will not forsake His people for His great name's sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you His people" (1 Sam.12:22).​

According to you the LORD broke that promise.You prove over and over that you are willing to say anything, no matter how ridiculous, in order to defend your bankrupt ideas. You are even willing to impugn the very character of the LORD!

"God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged" (Ro.3:4).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry,Interesting that you would find the land promise to be the most important indicator of the righteousness of God. Ever read Rom 3:21?

I never said that. Once again you misrepresent what I say as well as what the dispensationalists teach. Tell me why you think that what is said at Romans 3:21 which you think means that the LORD broke this promise which He made to the physical descendants of Israel:

"(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God) He will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which He sware unto them" (Deut. 4:31).​

"For the LORD will not forsake His people for His great name's sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you His people" (1 Sam.12:22).​

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

1Pe 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

In those verses Paul makes reference to the his kinsmen according to the flesh, the Israelites. He also speaks of the "promises" which the LORD gave them. And this refers to one of those promises:

(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God) He will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which He sware unto them" (Deut. 4:31).​

"For the LORD will not forsake His people for His great name's sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you His people" (1 Sam.12:22).​

According to you the LORD broke that promise.You prove over and over that you are willing to say anything, no matter how ridiculous, in order to defend your bankrupt ideas. You are even willing to impugn the very character of the LORD!

"God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged" (Ro.3:4).​

You are a fool who does not believe the NT Apostles and therefore He who taught them.

LA

 

[Interplanner]

I never said that. Once again you misrepresent what I say as well as what the dispensationalists teach. Tell me why you think that what is said at Romans 3:21 which you think means that the LORD broke this promise which He made to the physical descendants of Israel:

"(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God) He will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which He sware unto them" (Deut. 4:31).​

"For the LORD will not forsake His people for His great name's sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you His people" (1 Sam.12:22).​

You did say that the righteousness of God consisted of him not "lying" about the land.

But rom3:21 is saying that the 'reliability' of God is in the Christ event. (There is a similar expression in Gal 2:20 about the 'faith' of Jesus Christ where he means his trustworthiness). So Rom 3:21 is sort of double because we all know what 'righteousness' means up to that point. God demands it, we don't have it, yet God provides it. The 'double' is that this is what satisfies the nagging questions about Israel. Not land promises.

This is why we have Acts 13's 'everything God promised...' and Rom 15's 'confirmation of all promises (with 4 OT quotes).' There is no regard for the land separately. Unless you mean the NHNE.

I reread Ps 68 again, and nothing could be clearer or more devastating to 2P2P. It all sounds like Sinai and the land of Israel, and then you read eph 4 and it is actually about Christs victory over our enemies, of which the land was a picture, a foreshadow, a type, a postcard, a prefigure.

 

[Right Divider]

He says twice they were all kept in Christ.

Nope.... that's just your fairy story interpretation based on rejecting the Bible and believing books about the Bible.

Those books are garbage.

He explained himself in Mt 21 etc the parable of the vineyard: he is no longer working with those who do not produce the fruit of the kingdom. There is nothing in the parable about coming back with the previous set of workers. There is no interest in the land promise in the NT. I don't know when you'll grasp that: no interest.

As you've been told millions of times, the so-called NT does NOT need to repeat every promise for them to REMAIN TRUE.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You are a fool who does not believe the NT Apostles and therefore He who taught them.

The Lord Jesus was with them for forty days while He taught them about the kingdom. And after being taught about the kingdom they believed that the kingdom would be restored to Israel (Acts 1:3-6).

Despite theses facts you prove that you are a fool because you think that you are right and they were wrong.

How long were you with the King Himself when He personally taught you about the kingdom?

 

[Interplanner]

The Lord Jesus was with them for forty days while He taught them about the kingdom. And after being taught about the kingdom they believed that the kingdom would be restored to Israel (Acts 1:3-6).

Despite theses facts you prove that you are a fool because you think that you are right and they were wrong.

How long were you with the King Himself when He personally taught you about the kingdom?

They did so in confusion Jerry; that's why it was rebuked so sharply!!! You always read what is not there. "But you will recieve power..." was the replacement of that kind of kingdom. Power is the reign of a king, his order, decree, in that context. It was the unstoppable force of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost to kickstart the mission. The mission was where all of this was going, says Ps 68 (the Lord gave the word and there was a multitude of preachers). The mission totally eclipses any INTEREST about the land in Acts. Interest!!! do you see? There is no interest in the land anymore. Only in the mission to all nations. "The earth (all of it) is the Lord's..."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

As you've been told millions of times, the so-called NT does NOT need to repeat every promise for them to REMAIN TRUE.

He doesn't even believe the promises made to the children of Israel which are found in the NT are true, such as these words of Paul:

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:26-27).​

Besides that, interplanner has the temerity to assert that he knows more about the kingdom than did the Apostles despite the fact that they were taught by the Lord Jesus about that subject for forty days!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

They did so in confusion Jerry; that's why it was rebuked so sharply!!!

If the Lord rebuked them for thinking that the kingdom would be restored to Israel why would He tell them that they were not to know the time it would happen?

In other words, why would He say anything to them about the time it would happen if it was never going to happen in the first place?

You prove that you are somehow able to trick your mind into believing the most ridiculous ideas but you shouldn't expect others to subject their minds to delusions as you are able to do!

 

[Interplanner]

He doesn't even believe the promises made to the children of Israel which are found in the NT are true, such as these words of Paul:

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:26-27).​

Besides that, interplanner has the temerity to assert that he knows more about the kingdom than did the Apostles despite the fact that they were taught by the Lord Jesus about that subject for forty days!

Because when you are done with those 40 days, you see the opposite of them in Acts 1 and in 2:30. Neither of you realize what is being said there. You don't accept the transfer of the power of the kingdom. You don't believe David said the resurrection was the enthronement. So your self-congratulatory praise is worthless. You don't accept the plain meaning of your holy bible text.

The apostles last flub was asking about the theocracy. That is what 'BUT YOU WILL RECEIVE THE KINGDOM'S POWER...' was expressed to clear their bumbling brains.

Your Rom 11 has all kinds of contextual and grammatical holes in it. It is not what 2P2P says. It is not Israel as you know it. Saved is 'justified' in Romans; it is NEVER a Davidic monarchy/theocracy, and then there is the "all" problem that you never answer. What good is "all" for the millions of Jews who have died through the centuries, are they not Jews? What about the % of racial purity? If you are 98% are you in?

Holes, holes, holes that you think are 'holy bible.'