ECT The Throne of David

[nikolai_42]

The Mosaic Covenant is now in abeyance even though it is described as being an "everlasting" covenant (Isa.24:5). The promise of someone always occupying the throne of David is also now in abeyance. But in the future the Mosaic Covenant will be in force once again and the Lord Jesus will sit upon the throne of David.

But that's not the covenant God referenced through Jeremiah - He was talking about the covenant He had with the sun and the moon and used the word "never" in association with the occupation of the Davidic throne. And even if it was the Mosaic Covenant being referred to, when did that fade away? Not before Christ appeared, surely. So the gap still remains unaccounted for.

The promise cannot be defined by an apparent failure to fulfill it.

 

[Nick M]

According to you God did lie when He promised David that He would not "alter" His promises because your theology is based on the idea that God changed the throne from an earthly one into a heavenly one.

Also;

Simon bar Jonah, aka Peter, speaking on behalf of God and full of the Holy Spirit, declared the Lord Jesus Christ whom they murdered and said he was raised up to sit on David's throne. Nothing about bearing the burden of sin for them.

 

[Right Divider]

But that's not the covenant God referenced through Jeremiah - He was talking about the covenant He had with the sun and the moon and used the word "never" in association with the occupation of the Davidic throne. And even if it was the Mosaic Covenant being referred to, when did that fade away? Not before Christ appeared, surely. So the gap still remains unaccounted for.

The promise cannot be defined by an apparent failure to fulfill it.

So is it your contention that God was wrong?

The answer is simple if you just take God at His Word.

The entire passage is about something that happens in the FUTURE.

Jer 33:14-21 (KJV)
(33:14) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. (33:15) In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. (33:16) In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this [is the name] wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. (33:17) For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; (33:18) Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. (33:19) And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, (33:20) Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; (33:21) [Then] may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. ​

Note that when Jeremiah said that "David shall never want", David was already dead for hundreds of years.

Once Christ is established on the throne of David (earthly throne in Israel), He will NEVER be moved from it.

Isa 9:6-7 (KJV)​

(9:6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (9:7) Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
​

Christ is NOT yet sitting on the throne of David. When He is, it will be forever.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

But that's not the covenant God referenced through Jeremiah - He was talking about the covenant He had with the sun and the moon and used the word "never" in association with the occupation of the Davidic throne.

So tell me how the Jews " broke" the Noahic Covenant:

"The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isa.24:5).​

It is impossible to break an unconditional covenant.

 

[nikolai_42]

So tell me how the Jews " broke" the Noahic Covenant:

"The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isa.24:5).​

It is impossible to break an unconditional covenant.

I only asked the question (which you haven't answered yet, I note). All protestations that God has to fulfill His promises to Israel based upon a literal rendering of scripture (or else His promises not certain) are fraught with the problem of holding God to one's own reading of things. Thus Jeremiah. God didn't reference the Mosaic (or even Noahic) covenant - but His covenant with the day and night. If you can break that covenant, then the promise can be revoked. The promise? That David will NEVER lack a man to sit on his throne.

Again...how was that literally fulfilled after Zedekiah?

 

[Right Divider]

I only asked the question (which you haven't answered yet, I note). All protestations that God has to fulfill His promises to Israel based upon a literal rendering of scripture (or else His promises not certain) are fraught with the problem of holding God to one's own reading of things. Thus Jeremiah. God didn't reference the Mosaic (or even Noahic) covenant - but His covenant with the day and night. If you can break that covenant, then the promise can be revoked. The promise? That David will NEVER lack a man to sit on his throne.

Again...how was that literally fulfilled after Zedekiah?

The promise about that pertained to the FUTURE.

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?123521-The-Throne-of-David&p=4947971&viewfull=1#post4947971

Please read all scripture IN CONTEXT.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I only asked the question (which you haven't answered yet, I note).

I answered it. Besides that, what is your point? You must have some point which you are trying to make about the promise which the LORD made to David concerning his throne.

You seem to be hinting that that promise cannot be taken literally. Is that right? If not then what point are you trying to make?

 

[Interplanner]

The promise about that pertained to the FUTURE.

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?123521-The-Throne-of-David&p=4947971&viewfull=1#post4947971

Please read all scripture IN CONTEXT.

But the 'never lack a man' raises the whole point of literalism. Because there have been hundreds of years without that. So that literal meaning is wrong, as is it most of the time with the OT. For ex., for ever.

But once Christ was enthroned on David's throne in Acts 2, we can say it will never fail to have its king.

 

[Right Divider]

But the 'never lack a man' raises the whole point of literalism. Because there have been hundreds of years without that.

You're making the same mistake DB. You didn't even bother to look at my other post. That ENTIRE passage is about something that will happen IN THE FUTURE.

So that literal meaning is wrong, as is it most of the time with the OT. For ex., for ever.

But once Christ was enthroned on David's throne in Acts 2, we can say it will never fail to have its king.

Christ was NOT enthroned on David's throne at ANY time...... YET!

WOW are you stupid.

 

[Interplanner]

You're making the same mistake DB. You didn't even bother to look at my other post. That ENTIRE passage is about something that will happen IN THE FUTURE.


Christ was NOT enthroned on David's throne at ANY time...... YET!

WOW are you stupid.

The future it is talking about was Christ and Paul. The NT. Stupid means that you think every line everywhere in the Bible is about our situation in 2017.

Saying Acts 2 does not say Christ is on David's throne in the resurrection is like saying Rom 3:21 'But now the righteousness of God is revealed...' is actually saying that a person is justified by all the external trappings of Judaism: circumcision, Sabbath, diet, seasonal and annual animal sacrifices, etc.

There is no other meaning to Acts 2 because there is no such thing as 2P2P or a future Davidic theocracy. You must have missed the thread about 'where is the paragraph on the land promise?'

 

[Danoh]

The future it is talking about was Christ and Paul. The NT. Stupid means that you think every line everywhere in the Bible is about our situation in 2017.

Saying Acts 2 does not say Christ is on David's throne in the resurrection is like saying Rom 3:21 'But now the righteousness of God is revealed...' is actually saying that a person is justified by all the external trappings of Judaism: circumcision, Sabbath, diet, seasonal and annual animal sacrifices, etc.

There is no other meaning to Acts 2 because there is no such thing as 2P2P or a future Davidic theocracy. You must have missed the thread about 'where is the paragraph on the land promise?'

Misread Acts 2 all you want; the fact of the matter is that David's throne was NEVER in Heaven.

What Peter is asserting is that the resurrection of Christ from the dead proves He is the One Prophesied by the Law and the Prophets that God would one day raise up from Peter's own people - Israel - to sit on David's throne on the Earth over their nation at last.

THAT is why the Twelve asked Him in Acts 1:6 "Lord wilt thou AT THIS TIME restore AGAIN the kingdom to Israel?"

It is amazing how you fail to see He never corrects them on who they think He is, but instead affirms they are right.

John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

He reinforces that kind of thing.

John 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

In Acts 2 and 3 there are TWO senses for "raise up" - which is WHY Acts 1 and 3 BOTH mention He WILL return.

Likewise, elsewhere in Acts...

Sense 1:

Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Sense 2:

Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Sense 2:

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Sense 1:

Acts 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Sense 2:

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Sense 1 and 2:

Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

Obviously, IP, you went off so long ago and have since so deeply entrenched yourself in your many years of so many errors piled upon more and more of the same, based on your false start to begin with, that it now appears there isn't a rope long enough to reach down, down, down your resulting rabbit hole, to attempt to bring you up from there for you to see the light of day concerning the fine mess you have gotten yourself into, by your own hand :chuckle:

 

[Right Divider]

The future it is talking about was Christ and Paul. The NT. Stupid means that you think every line everywhere in the Bible is about our situation in 2017.

You just keep digging your stupidity hole deeper and deeper. I'm amazed at your truly profound ignorance. It not about "our situation in 2017", it's STILL FUTURE.

Jer 33:14-21 (KJV)
(33:14) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. (33:15) In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. (33:16) In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this [is the name] wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. (33:17) For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; (33:18) Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. (33:19) And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, (33:20) Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; (33:21) [Then] may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.​

So you think that Jerusalem was dwelling safely during early Acts? What a moron!

Christ will execute judgment and righteousness IN THE LAND when He returns to Jerusalem to sit on David's throne. That is when Jerusalem will dwell safely!

Saying Acts 2 does not say Christ is on David's throne in the resurrection is like saying Rom 3:21 'But now the righteousness of God is revealed...' is actually saying that a person is justified by all the external trappings of Judaism: circumcision, Sabbath, diet, seasonal and annual animal sacrifices, etc.

More psycho-babble.... good work "grammar scholar".

There is no other meaning to Acts 2 because there is no such thing as 2P2P or a future Davidic theocracy. You must have missed the thread about 'where is the paragraph on the land promise?'

You just don't believe God's Word. He is not going to "do it your way". The land promise STANDS on its own. YOU are the one that needs to PROVE that it was CANCELLED and it was NOT!

 

[Interplanner]

You just keep digging your stupidity hole deeper and deeper. I'm amazed at your truly profound ignorance. It not about "our situation in 2017", it's STILL FUTURE.

Jer 33:14-21 (KJV)
(33:14) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. (33:15) In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. (33:16) In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this [is the name] wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. (33:17) For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; (33:18) Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. (33:19) And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, (33:20) Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; (33:21) [Then] may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.​

So you think that Jerusalem was dwelling safely during early Acts? What a moron!

Christ will execute judgment and righteousness IN THE LAND when He returns to Jerusalem to sit on David's throne. That is when Jerusalem will dwell safely!


More psycho-babble.... good work "grammar scholar".


You just don't believe God's Word. He is not going to "do it your way". The land promise STANDS on its own. YOU are the one that needs to PROVE that it was CANCELLED and it was NOT!

Glad you know enough about 1st century history to see that it was precarious (although you have regularly refused to know anything about it until now! Go figure). It is actually a paradox. It was the best and worst. The Idumeans were no competition for the Roman forces that would protect their interest, so it was the most secure. The zealots wanted Idumean help to break the Roman hold, so it was risky. But even Christ himself said the odds were 2:1 against the zealots in Lk 14:31.

We know from the apostles use of the passage you quoted that it was fulfilled in the Gospel and was written to picture the security in Christ. The literal meaning of 'never lack a man on the throne' was obviously wrong until Christ and the Gospel, which is what Peter said David was talking about.

The "Jerusalem" that dwells safely is God's believers. If you don't know this is a solid stream of Christian thought, you might be interested to know that in the Liddell story CHARIOTS OF FIRE the title comes from a Christian hymn called Jerusalem, which is about the believers all through time and their ultimate victory in Christ. Liddell was an evangelical, not a Catholic. 2P2P started in the 1900s with its upstart claim that it was actually the original apostolic doctrine. Not.

The comparison to Rom 3 was exactly how you sound when you jerk the Bible around. It's up to you.

As for proof, you need to find the NT paragraph that articulates your belief. There are nothing but stray references. Which is all the better grip 2P2P has on the Bible.

 

[Right Divider]

The "Jerusalem" that dwells safely is God's believers.

Jer 33:15-16 (KJV)​

(33:15) In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. (33:16) In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this [is the name] wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.​

That passage SPECIFICALLY says that His judgement and righteousness will be executed IN THE LAND. You are just in a fairy tale land and not the BIBLE.

 

[Interplanner]

Jer 33:15-16 (KJV)​

(33:15) In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. (33:16) In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this [is the name] wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.​

That passage SPECIFICALLY says that His judgement and righteousness will be executed IN THE LAND. You are just in a fairy tale land and not the BIBLE.

That is, not in the veiled OT. It is definitely different in the NT. But you think you are the authority with your non-NT interp of the OT.

 

[Right Divider]

That is, not in the veiled OT. It is definitely different in the NT. But you think you are the authority with your non-NT interp of the OT.

You believe practically none of the Bible, so I see why you're so terribly confused.

 

[Interplanner]

You need to define the veil of 2 Cor 3-5 so that you know you are not seeing only what the veil lets you see.

 

[Interplanner]

You need to define the veil of 2 Cor 3-5 so that you know you are not seeing only what the veil lets you see.

I know of very little where you interp the OT as the NT does. That's why you avoid them (quotes) and are constantly telling us to read it apart from the NT.

 

[nikolai_42]

The promise about that pertained to the FUTURE.

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?123521-The-Throne-of-David&p=4947971&viewfull=1#post4947971

Please read all scripture IN CONTEXT.

Notice the passage in Jeremiah 33 - it certainly starts out talking about a future day, but it then refers directly to the promise God gave David. That appears as a separate word from the Lord.

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.
For thus saith the Lord; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
And the word of the Lord came unto Jeremiah, saying,
Thus saith the Lord; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.
Jeremiah 33:14-22

And the covenant with David :

And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
2 Samuel 7:12-16

Solomon built a house for God's name. If we are talking about a rebuilt temple in the last days, then we have a contradiction in which that which is being done by the Jews is in conflict with what is accomplished in Christ - and so God sets up an "eternal" kingdom (granting that this could imply till the end of time...or not) but if Christ sets up His kingdom in the last day after the manner that many today expect, what does eternal really mean if the original Davidic line was on the throne for several hundred years?

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Genesis 49:10

 

[Interplanner]

Notice the passage in Jeremiah 33 - it certainly starts out talking about a future day, but it then refers directly to the promise God gave David. That appears as a separate word from the Lord.

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.
For thus saith the Lord; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
And the word of the Lord came unto Jeremiah, saying,
Thus saith the Lord; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.
Jeremiah 33:14-22

And the covenant with David :

And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
2 Samuel 7:12-16

Solomon built a house for God's name. If we are talking about a rebuilt temple in the last days, then we have a contradiction in which that which is being done by the Jews is in conflict with what is accomplished in Christ - and so God sets up an "eternal" kingdom (granting that this could imply till the end of time...or not) but if Christ sets up His kingdom in the last day after the manner that many today expect, what does eternal really mean if the original Davidic line was on the throne for several hundred years?

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Genesis 49:10

These are the last days, since the NT happened, as you will see by noticing about 30 passages in the NT. It was speaking of what happened in Christ the KING OF RIGHTEOUSNESS referred to in both Jeremiah and Hebrews (from Genesis).

The mistaken application of the "last" to us in this century is a fundamental misunderstanding of what happened in Christ and what the NT is about.