ECT The Throne of David

[Right Divider]

Yes, it has a future aspect (because of the return), plus there is the conception in most places in the NT that the return was very near, but this does not void the hundred-odd passages that say the kingdom is now, working now, operating now.

The kingdom where Christ sits on the throne of David is NEVER said to be "operating now". That's just your fairy story at work again.

2Pet 1:10-11 (KJV)​

(1:10) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: (1:11) For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. ​

Peter says that the entrance into the kingdom is later.

Don't tell me that a passage is about the 1000 year earthly reign when that is just a system you are trying to figure out and guess at. There is nothing in the passage that forces it to be that way, so just back off your 2P2P and allow for all options on the table.

:juggle:

 

[Interplanner]

The kingdom where Christ sits on the throne of David is NEVER said to be "operating now". That's just your fairy story at work again.

2Pet 1:10-11 (KJV)​

(1:10) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: (1:11) For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. ​

Peter says that the entrance into the kingdom is later.


:juggle:

ACts 2, 13, 15 all say that kingdom throne is now. That's really the whole point of Acts 2's sermon. Your homework leaves much to be desired.

The kingdom is very long, so yes, we are in it now, as so many passages say (there is no nitpick difference between several kingdoms) and it will come to an end for the NHNE. IT is both, not one or the other.

 

[Right Divider]

ACts 2, 13, 15 all say that kingdom throne is now.

I guess that Peter changed his mind?

That's really the whole point of Acts 2's sermon. Your homework leaves much to be desired.

The kingdom is very long, so yes, we are in it now, as so many passages say (there is no nitpick difference between several kingdoms) and it will come to an end for the NHNE. IT is both, not one or the other.

There are different ways that kingdom of God is described in scripture.

NONE of that changes the kingdom restored to Israel with Christ sitting on the throne of David, which is ON the earth IN Jerusalem.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Yes, it has a future aspect (because of the return), plus there is the conception in most places in the NT that the return was very near, but this does not void the hundred-odd passages that say the kingdom is now, working now, operating now.

Don't tell me that a passage is about the 1000 year earthly reign when that is just a system you are trying to figure out and guess at. There is nothing in the passage that forces it to be that way, so just back off your 2P2P and allow for all options on the table.

:chuckle:

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

there is no nitpick

That's your entire philosophy on the Bible, sweep it all into one category, count it as fulfilled.
Easy and pretty. Now we can focus on writing books and "doing theology".

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Don't tell me that a passage is about the 1000 year earthly reign when that is just a system you are trying to figure out and guess at. There is nothing in the passage that forces it to be that way, so just back off your 2P2P and allow for all options on the table.

The "option" which you choose makes the LORD a liar because He promised that He would not "alter" the promises which He made to David:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).​

The totality of your eschatology is based on the idea that the LORD altered all of the promises which He made to David. You show absolutely no respect for the integrity of the Righteous LORD!

 

[Interplanner]

The "option" which you choose makes the LORD a liar because He promised that He would not "alter" the promises which He made to David:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).​

The totality of your eschatology is based on the idea that the LORD altered all of the promises which He made to David. You show absolutely no respect for the integrity of the Righteous LORD!

You're the one who has to explain Acts 13 on David's promises, not me.

It will help enormously if you know NT passages about the OT and quote them instead of your own thoughts about the OT. It will help enormously if you use NT passages about the issues you are talking about. If it's "God lying" see Rom 3:3 and Rom 9A. It is NOT resolved with your land promise method.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You're the one who has to explain Acts 13 on David's promises, not me.

I see nothing there that says that the LORD lied to David because He altered the promises which He made to him even though He said that He would do no such thing.

 

[Interplanner]

I see nothing there that says that the LORD lied to David because He altered the promises which He made to him even though He said that He would do no such thing.

There are no other passages on the 'promises to David' in the NT. The fixation on it is a total 2P2P fabrication. The one that is quoted is Isaiah saying they would be transferred to the Servant for his sacrifice for mankind.

btw, why aren't you fussing about Gal 3:16 saying that the Seed is not many people, but Christ? If you understood that, you would understand this one. All of those OT prefigurments were about Christ and would be superceded by him.

You still indicate nothing that shows you have absorbed the debate that ended 'how is he his son?' It (Ps 110) always was meant to be about Christ, not David.

2P2P is always on some OT passage other than what Christ spent time on. You want Ps 89 and 83. Christ was on 16, 2 and 110.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

btw, why aren't you fussing about Gal 3:16 saying that the Seed is not many people, but Christ?

Because the promises include both the ONE seed as well as multiple seeds. The promise which Paul speaks of at Galatians 3:15 is this one:

"And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice" (Gen.22:18).​

But that does not nullify the promises in regard to the multiple seeds, such as this one:

"And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered" (Gen.13:14-16).​

Of course this promise regarding the multiple seed will be fulfilled in the future when those seed will be brought back to the land which the LORD gave to Jacob and they will remain there for ever:

"Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land...And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have...Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people" (Ez.37:25-27).​

Since you have no place in your discredited eschatology for the fulfillment of this promise of the LORD you just assert that He broke that promise and it will never be fulfilled!

 

[Interplanner]

Because the promises include both the ONE seed as well as multiple seeds. The promise which Paul speaks of at Galatians 3:15 is this one:

"And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice" (Gen.22:18).​

But that does not nullify the promises in regard to the multiple seeds, such as this one:

"And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered" (Gen.13:14-16).​

Of course this promise regarding the multiple seed will be fulfilled in the future when those seed will be brought back to the land which the LORD gave to Jacob and they will remain there for ever:

"Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land...And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have...Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people" (Ez.37:25-27).​

Since you have no place in your discredited eschatology for the fulfillment of this promise of the LORD you just assert that He broke that promise and it will never be fulfilled!

sorry that's not how the NT sounds. The thing promised was the Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14) so that the nations would believe on Christ and be part of his kingdom and dominion--without ceasing to exist as nations.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The thing promised was the Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14) so that the nations would believe on Christ and be part of his kingdom and dominion--without ceasing to exist as nations.

You speak of only one promise and you ignore the rest. Or are you saying that the promises which the LORD gave concerning the land which the LORD gave to Jacob was not in regard to any land at all?

 

[Interplanner]

Not any more after Christ.

The land was part of the child-trainer phase, because you have to have a brick and mortar place that you say is sacred and rituals that are kept THERE and no where else. Hebrews says the infrastructure of that is gone.

What Hebrews hoped for the land of Judea (as did the apostles, Christ) was that it would not suffer the morass of the destruction of Jerusalem, ch 6.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Not any more after Christ.

According to your bankrupt theology this prophecy concerning the land which the LORD gave to Jacob will never be fulfilled:

"Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land...And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have...Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people" (Ez.37:25-27).​

According to you the LORD makes promises and then breaks those promises.

 

[Interplanner]

Thanks for calling the Christ of Is 53, Col 1, Heb 1-10 bankrupt. Boy, what a great day.

Once again you are NT-free. You think your business is to go into the OT and find what you want. Are you also having menstruating women not attend church?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Thanks for calling the Christ of Is 53, Col 1, Heb 1-10 bankrupt. Boy, what a great day.

It is your theology that is bankrupt. Here is the land promise given to David by the Lord:

"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).​

"And move no more"! This promise according to the Davidic covenant is restated later by the prophet Jeremiah:

"For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up"(Jer.24:6).​

"And not pluck them up"! The promise the Lord made to David at 2 Samuel 7:10 was not fulfilled in the first century so its fulfillment will happen after that. God also said that He would not "alter" the promises which He made to David:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).​

The Israelites will be broght back to the land which the Lord gave Jacob and they will not be plucked out of that land. That is what the Lord promised David and He said that He would not alter that promise.

Despite this you say that this promise to David will never be fulfilled. Therefore, according to your ideas the LORD lied to David, thus proving that your theology is bankrupt!

 

[Interplanner]

It is your theology that is bankrupt. Here is the land promise given to David by the Lord:

"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).​

"And move no more"! This promise according to the Davidic covenant is restated later by the prophet Jeremiah:

"For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up"(Jer.24:6).​

"And not pluck them up"! The promise the Lord made to David at 2 Samuel 7:10 was not fulfilled in the first century so its fulfillment will happen after that. God also said that He would not "alter" the promises which He made to David:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).​

The Israelites will be broght back to the land which the Lord gave Jacob and they will not be plucked out of that land. That is what the Lord promised David and He said that He would not alter that promise.

Despite this you say that this promise to David will never be fulfilled. Therefore, according to your ideas the LORD lied to David, thus proving that your theology is bankrupt!

He did not lie. The fulfillment was not that kind. David foresaw that the resurrection was the enthronement on the throne. That is the language of Acts 2:30-31. That is what matters. That is why 'how then is he his son?' is the game changing debate with Judaism. Isaiah already said the things promised to David were transferred to Christ, but it was not land, acts 13 on Is 55. Israel was supposed to proclaim to the nations that Christ was Lord and Savior. Ps 68: great was the multitude of preachers after the Lord gave the word, after the ascension of Messiah. That's what Eph 4 is quoting and about.

It is 2P2P--D'ism that is bankrupt, and I don't belong to it for that reason.

You better try another approach if you have one. this silly thing about God lying doesn't work.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

He did not lie. The fulfillment was not that kind. David foresaw that the resurrection was the enthronement on the throne. That is the language of Acts 2:30-31. That is what matters. That is why 'how then is he his son?' is the game changing debate with Judaism. Isaiah already said the things promised to David were transferred to Christ, but it was not land, acts 13 on Is 55. Israel was supposed to proclaim to the nations that Christ was Lord and Savior. Ps 68: great was the multitude of preachers after the Lord gave the word, after the ascension of Messiah. That's what Eph 4 is quoting and about.

It is 2P2P--D'ism that is bankrupt, and I don't belong to it for that reason.

You better try another approach if you have one. this silly thing about God lying doesn't work.

:chuckle:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

He did not lie. The fulfillment was not that kind. David foresaw that the resurrection was the enthronement on the throne.

From the very beginning the throne of David and the Davidic kingdom were both earthly in nature, as witnessed by the following words:

"Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly" (1 Ki. 2:12).​

Solomon sat upon the throne of David on the earth and his kingdom which was established was one which was earthly.Now let us look at the Lord's promises made to David in regard to that throne and kingdom:

"I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever...And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever" (2 Sam.7:12-13).​

Since the throne and the kingdom were both "earthly" in nature then we can know that God established the earthly throne and the earthly kingdom FOR EVER.

Your discredited theology denies that the Lord Jesus will sit upon the earthly throne of David. Even though the LORD swore to David that He would you say that He never will.

To make it even worse you delight in your ungodly ideas!

 

[Interplanner]

From the very beginning the throne of David and the Davidic kingdom were both earthly in nature, as witnessed by the following words:

"Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly" (1 Ki. 2:12).​

Solomon sat upon the throne of David on the earth and his kingdom which was established was one which was earthly.Now let us look at the Lord's promises made to David in regard to that throne and kingdom:

"I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever...And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever" (2 Sam.7:12-13).​

Since the throne and the kingdom were both "earthly" in nature then we can know that God established the earthly throne and the earthly kingdom FOR EVER.

Your discredited theology denies that the Lord Jesus will sit upon the earthly throne of David. Even though the LORD swore to David that He would you say that He never will.

To make it even worse you delight in your ungodly ideas!

Ungodly? Ungodly is to discredit Christ right now with what he has. there is no reason now that the Gospel has come and the age of grace to go back. Go read some Hebrews. You are missing the whole pulse of the bible.