The Sabbath commandment is one of the Ten Commandments.

[Clete]

I don't know how to help you with this. I accept all of God's word (the Bible).

I say it is hopeless because I have directly shown you that you do not accept all of God's word and you are unable to see it. You are completely blind to it and I suspect that it is intentional blindness. It isn't that you're blind but that you refuse to see. Which is to say that it isn't that you're stupid, its that you refuse to think.

You cannot be saved by circumcision. If you think you can you are wrong. Salvation is not by works, it is by faith. When you obey God's commands, you also should do so, you should do this, in faith. Obedience can only be in and by faith.

Has this always been the case? That is, has there ever been a time when circumcision was required? (See Exodus 4:24-26 for the answer.)

If so, when did that change and by who's teaching?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Jacob]

I say it is hopeless because I have directly shown you that you do not accept all of God's word and you are unable to see it. You are completely blind to it and I suspect that it is intentional blindness. It isn't that you're blind but that you refuse to see. Which is to say that it isn't that you're stupid, its that you refuse to think.



Has this always been the case? That is, has there ever been a time when circumcision was required? (See Exodus 4:24-26 for the answer.)

If so, when did that change and by who's teaching?

Resting in Him,
Clete

I have read Galatians, yes. It is important.

Circumcision is a command of God. But you are not required as a believer or convert from among the Gentiles, to be circumcised. To observe Torah, be of Israel, observe Passover, you are required by God's Law to do so. But you can observe God's Law and worship the God of Israel, the God of the Jews, the one true God, the Creator (of heaven and earth), still, even while still uncircumcised, even if you choose it (being uncircumcised) to be a permanent condition or situation. You may and / or can change your mind if you are currently uncircumcised. But to be a Christian or worship the one true God, you don't have to be circumcised. You also don't have to observe the entire or whole Law, though you should observe and obey God's Law even if only in part. Obey God. Obey God's commands. I choose to observe all the Law, whenever and in whatever it applies to me. For example, I can learn about God's commands regarding women and marriage, but not being a woman and being unmarried, I am not required to observe them myself. Some commands are for men. Some commands are for women.

 

[clefty]

I have read Galatians, yes. It is important.

Circumcision is a command of God. But you are not required as a believer or convert from among the Gentiles, to be circumcised. To observe Torah, be of Israel, observe Passover, you are required by God's Law to do so. But you can observe God's Law and worship the God of Israel, the God of the Jews, the one true God, the Creator (of heaven and earth), still, even while still uncircumcised, even if you choose it (being uncircumcised) to be a permanent condition or situation. You may and / or can change your mind if you are currently uncircumcised. But to be a Christian or worship the one true God, you don't have to be circumcised. You also don't have to observe the entire or whole Law, though you should observe and obey God's Law even if only in part. Obey God. Obey God's commands. I choose to observe all the Law, whenever and in whatever it applies to me. For example, I can learn about God's commands regarding women and marriage, but not being a woman and being unmarried, I am not required to observe them myself. Some commands are for men. Some commands are for women.

Satan has had great success in distracting digressing and finally destroying conversations about the Sabbath with equating it to circumcision.

Alas...

it does however reveal the heart and minds...the intentions of man

Through Him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to Yah, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name.

 

[Clete]

I have read Galatians, yes. It is important.

Giving something lip service is not the same as "accepting all of the word of God", Jacob.

You ignore Galatians as well as 90% of the rest of what God put into the bible by Paul's hand.

Circumcision is a command of God. But you are not required as a believer or convert from among the Gentiles, to be circumcised.

Not required?

We are commanded not to circumcise, Jacob! We are told directly not to circumcise (as a religious rite) or else Christ will profit nothing. That one single point destroys your entire theology!

To observe Torah, be of Israel, observe Passover, you are required by God's Law to do so. But you can observe God's Law and worship the God of Israel, the God of the Jews, the one true God, the Creator (of heaven and earth), still, even while still uncircumcised, even if you choose it (being uncircumcised) to be a permanent condition or situation. You may and / or can change your mind if you are currently uncircumcised. But to be a Christian or worship the one true God, you don't have to be circumcised. You also don't have to observe the entire or whole Law, though you should observe and obey God's Law even if only in part. Obey God. Obey God's commands. I choose to observe all the Law, whenever and in whatever it applies to me. For example, I can learn about God's commands regarding women and marriage, but not being a woman and being unmarried, I am not required to observe them myself. Some commands are for men. Some commands are for women.

I charge you to never again claim that you accept the whole word of God. If you do, you're a liar.

Your doctrine cannot survive even a third grader's understanding of Galatians 5...

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

7 You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is.

11 And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. 12 I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off!​

I could have quoted the entire chapter. The whole chapter is discussing the exact thing you just advocated and destroys it utterly. You are wrong, Jacob. Paul wrote the whole book of Galatians to keep people from making the exact error that you have made and that you come here to convince others to make. You are the guy that Paul just sarcastically wished would cut "himself" off! Your error here won't keep you out of heaven but nothing you do in this life will survive the judgment seat of Christ. The Consuming Fire that is the God we worship with burn all the works of your flesh away and they will be as nothing, as smoke blown by the wind (1 Corinthians 3:15).

I urge you to stop! I beg you to enter into that rest, that perfect Sabbath rest which is Jesus Christ and Him crucified. You can do no better than to love God and to love your neighbor just as you love yourself (again read Galatians 5).


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Right Divider]

Hebrews 12:22-23 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect...​

Yes, this refers to Israel. Well done.

Exod 4:22-23 (AKJV/PCE)​

(4:22) And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel [is] my son, [even] my firstborn: (4:23) And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, [even] thy firstborn. ​

Israel are the Hebrews.

 

[jamie]

Yes, this refers to Israel. Well done.

Exod 4:22-23 (AKJV/PCE)​

(4:22) And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel [is] my son, [even] my firstborn: (4:23) And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, [even] thy firstborn. ​

Israel are the Hebrews.

Yes, indeed.

Galatians 3:7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.​

The sons of Abraham will become immortal.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.​

 

[Right Divider]

Yes, indeed.

Galatians 3:7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.​

The sons of Abraham will become immortal.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.​

Are you unaware that Israel was Abraham's grandson?

 

[jamie]

Are you unaware that Israel was Abraham's grandson?

Are you aware that the covenant with Abraham was not affected by the Mosaic covenant?

Galatians 3:16-17 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed” who is Christ. And this I say that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ that it should make the promise of no effect.​

What was the promise?

Galatians 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​

The gift of the Spirit is eternal life.

 

[Right Divider]

Are you aware that the covenant with Abraham was not affected by the Mosaic covenant?

Galatians 3:16-17 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed” who is Christ. And this I say that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ that it should make the promise of no effect.​

What was the promise?

Galatians 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​

The gift of the Spirit is eternal life.

I am.

What does this all have to do with the commandments given to the children of Israel?

 

[jamie]

What does this all have to do with the commandments given to the children of Israel?

The true children of Israel are the Israel of God, his firstborn.

This has nothing to do with ethnicity.

 

[Right Divider]

The true children of Israel are the Israel of God, his firstborn.

This has nothing to do with ethnicity.

Keep believing that myth if it makes you happy.

 

[Jacob]

Satan has had great success in distracting digressing and finally destroying conversations about the Sabbath with equating it to circumcision.

Alas...

it does however reveal the heart and minds...the intentions of man

Through Him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to Yah, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name.

The question about the Sabbath and circumcision does involve if you are a Jew or if you obey God's commands, and that each of these commands is a sign. But you do not have to be circumcised to be saved, have fellowship with, and be called among God's people. The Sabbath commandment is one of the Ten Commandments. As with all of God's commands it is your choice if you are going to observe it. You are not saved by works, by the works of the Law, but by grace through faith. You were saved unto good works. As for work and rest, work the first six days of the week and rest on the seventh, the Sabbath, according to God's command, commands, commandment. The Sabbath commandment is Jewish. But if you are not Jewish you can still join with Israel in obeying and observing God's commands, whether for Israel or for all mankind. You can get circumcised if you want to. But these are different commands. Still this is not to say that the Sabbath commandment is required for you to be circumcised. However, you can hear Moses read and the Sabbath commandment is different from discussions about fast days.

Romans 14:5 ESV - 5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

 

[Jacob]

As for uncircumcision, as found in the Bible, we have the following.

As for uncircumcision, as found in the Bible, we have the following.

Romans 2:25-26 NASB - 25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

1 Corinthians 7:18-19 NASB - 18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

Galatians 5:6 NASB - 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Galatians 6:15 NASB - 15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Ephesians 2:11 NASB - 11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands--

Colossians 2:13 NASB - 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

 

[Jacob]

Giving something lip service is not the same as "accepting all of the word of God", Jacob.

You ignore Galatians as well as 90% of the rest of what God put into the bible by Paul's hand.


Not required?

We are commanded not to circumcise, Jacob! We are told directly not to circumcise (as a religious rite) or else Christ will profit nothing. That one single point destroys your entire theology!


I charge you to never again claim that you accept the whole word of God. If you do, you're a liar.

Your doctrine cannot survive even a third grader's understanding of Galatians 5...

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

7 You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is.

11 And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. 12 I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off!​

I could have quoted the entire chapter. The whole chapter is discussing the exact thing you just advocated and destroys it utterly. You are wrong, Jacob. Paul wrote the whole book of Galatians to keep people from making the exact error that you have made and that you come here to convince others to make. You are the guy that Paul just sarcastically wished would cut "himself" off! Your error here won't keep you out of heaven but nothing you do in this life will survive the judgment seat of Christ. The Consuming Fire that is the God we worship with burn all the works of your flesh away and they will be as nothing, as smoke blown by the wind (1 Corinthians 3:15).

I urge you to stop! I beg you to enter into that rest, that perfect Sabbath rest which is Jesus Christ and Him crucified. You can do no better than to love God and to love your neighbor just as you love yourself (again read Galatians 5).


Resting in Him,
Clete

We are commanded in the Law, the Torah, and throughout the Bible, even by Jesus Himself, to love God and love our neighbor.

I do accept all of the Bible. I have since I was a child. Galatians shows that you do not receive the Spirit by the works of the Law. You also are not perfected by the flesh. Nowhere does it say that we are not to obey God.

As for accepting circumcision, this is more than being circumcised, and Paul had Timothy circumcised. It is more than observing all of Torah. It is legalism. A person can get circumcised and observe all of Torah if they want to. But accepting circumcision in the sense of think you will be saved by so doing, or that salvation is by works, is wrong and wrong headed. It is not the same as the gospel we know and love. That Jesus died for the forgiveness of your sins. The question is if you are a Gentile grafted in, if you are of the house of Israel and the house of Judah and the new covenant or if you can be saved other than being a part of the new covenant, or if you are a convert and of Israel. If you have God's law written on your heart and mind I don't think it is so difficult to observe it. Is it the Law of Moses? Some say no. But what is God's law spoken of in Jeremiah 31:31-34 NASB? Is there another option other than the Law of Moses, God's law. The Mosaic law. The Torah. The Ten Commandments and what God had Moses write? Some say that there is a moral law. If you observe God's law, even if it is the law of Christ, I don't think you will teach people to not obey God's commands. You can explain, however, that salvation is not through law-keeping.

Were you freed from sin to obey God? Yes. If you are saved. Does this mean that you are to engage in legalism or get circumcised? Not necessarily. But observing God's Law is not wrong.

 

[Jacob]

You can observe the Ten Commandments without having ever heard of circumcision. But this was a commandment given to the nation of Israel.

 

[Jacob]

Is the foreigner here circumcised?

Isaiah 56:1-12 NASB - 1 Thus says the LORD,"Preserve justice and do righteousness,For My salvation is about to comeAnd My righteousness to be revealed. 2 "How blessed is the man who does this,And the son of man who takes hold of it;Who keeps from profaning the sabbath,And keeps his hand from doing any evil." 3 Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say,"The LORD will surely separate me from His people."Nor let the eunuch say, "Behold, I am a dry tree." 4 For thus says the LORD,"To the eunuchs who keep My sabbaths,And choose what pleases Me,And hold fast My covenant, 5 To them I will give in My house and within My walls a memorial,And a name better than that of sons and daughters;I will give them an everlasting name which will not be cut off. 6 "Also the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD,To minister to Him, and to love the name of the LORD,To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the sabbathAnd holds fast My covenant; 7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountainAnd make them joyful in My house of prayer.Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples." 8 The Lord GOD, who gathers the dispersed of Israel, declares,"Yet others I will gather to them, to those already gathered." 9 All you beasts of the field,All you beasts in the forest,Come to eat. 10 His watchmen are blind,All of them know nothing.All of them are mute dogs unable to bark,Dreamers lying down, who love to slumber; 11 And the dogs are greedy, they are not satisfied.And they are shepherds who have no understanding;They have all turned to their own way,Each one to his unjust gain, to the last one. 12 "Come," they say, "let us get wine, and let us drink heavily of strong drink;And tomorrow will be like today, only more so."

 

[clefty]

Is the foreigner here circumcised?

Isaiah 56:1-12 NASB - 1 Thus says the LORD,"Preserve justice and do righteousness,For My salvation is about to comeAnd My righteousness to be revealed. 2 "How blessed is the man who does this,And the son of man who takes hold of it;Who keeps from profaning the sabbath,And keeps his hand from doing any evil." 3 Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say,"The LORD will surely separate me from His people."Nor let the eunuch say, "Behold, I am a dry tree." 4 For thus says the LORD,"To the eunuchs who keep My sabbaths,And choose what pleases Me,And hold fast My covenant, 5 To them I will give in My house and within My walls a memorial,And a name better than that of sons and daughters;I will give them an everlasting name which will not be cut off. 6 "Also the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD,To minister to Him, and to love the name of the LORD,To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the sabbathAnd holds fast My covenant; 7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountainAnd make them joyful in My house of prayer.Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples." 8 The Lord GOD, who gathers the dispersed of Israel, declares,"Yet others I will gather to them, to those already gathered." 9 All you beasts of the field,All you beasts in the forest,Come to eat. 10 His watchmen are blind,All of them know nothing.All of them are mute dogs unable to bark,Dreamers lying down, who love to slumber; 11 And the dogs are greedy, they are not satisfied.And they are shepherds who have no understanding;They have all turned to their own way,Each one to his unjust gain, to the last one. 12 "Come," they say, "let us get wine, and let us drink heavily of strong drink;And tomorrow will be like today, only more so."

What is all this fuss about an act that never saved...

People are not saved collectively or by association...

Nor is one's ethnicity changed by becoming cut...

Nor was Christ made invalid to any of those who are cut...imagine all the ones whose parents let them get cut...or cut for medical or hygenic reasons...Christ is still valid

He is made invalid by any who allow themselves to be cut not to merely join a group but thinking that by this act they are made saved...

Think of all the ones who were cut which belonged to a group and still lost their salvation...

If you think getting cut lets you in a group then fine but it alone don't let you in the group in the kingdom of heaven...

It's that simple...

But the real issue remains the Sabbath which does still reveals the heart and points the way for all man...and yet merely observing it alone is not enough to join that heavenly group

 

[Jacob]

If a person says all they have to do is love God and love their neighbor, yes they are right. But some might exclude other commands in the Bible, when they shouldn't because the Bible reveals that all of the commands in the Bible are about love of God and neighbor.

 

[Jacob]

What is all this fuss about an act that never saved...

People are not saved collectively or by association...

Nor is one's ethnicity changed by becoming cut...

Nor was Christ made invalid to any of those who are cut...imagine all the ones whose parents let them get cut...or cut for medical or hygenic reasons...Christ is still valid

He is made invalid by any who allow themselves to be cut not to merely join a group but thinking that by this act they are made saved...

Think of all the ones who were cut which belonged to a group and still lost their salvation...

If you think getting cut lets you in a group then fine but it alone don't let you in the group in the kingdom of heaven...

It's that simple...

But the real issue remains the Sabbath which does still reveals the heart and points the way for all man...and yet merely observing it alone is not enough to join that heavenly group

I don't know what you are saying, but no one has ever been saved by works. I don't understand what you are saying. Association of course does not save you.

 

[Jacob]

one law

one law

Here are a few verses that speak of one law. For the native and the alien who sojourns among you.

With the Sabbath we saw the word foreigner. Is this sojourner, ger, alien? What about the Jew, the proselyte, the convert, who lives outside the land of Israel? We also are to follow, observe, obey, do, God's commands.

Leviticus 7:7 NASB - 'The guilt offering is like the sin offering, there is one law for them; the priest who makes atonement with it shall have it.

Numbers 15:16 NASB - 'There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.'"

Numbers 15:29 NASB - 'You shall have one law for him who does anything unintentionally, for him who is native among the sons of Israel and for the alien who sojourns among them.

There can be more to this discussion in so many ways.

For those who have salvation in Jesus Christ, from among the Gentiles, read Acts 15. You must obey God's commands. But you are not required and should not be forced to be circumcised. Remember, Jesus is better than Moses. However, we must also remember that Moses is God's prophet and in him we have the word of God. The Law of Moses or the Mosaic Law is not man's law, it is God's.