The early church was entirely Jewish. And for those who were cut off, God is able to graft them in in again. That is what we find in the book of Romans.
The Sabbath commandment is one of the Ten Commandments.
- Thread starter Jacob
- Start date
Wrong Jacob.
The earlier church wasn't even of the tribe...and it's been one law for Israel and the foreigner since the exodus...
Sadly the conspiracy was found in that tribe...
Well the initial christening of the covenant was to an upper room full of them...not a gentile amongst them...
And immediately thereafter many were added including Gentiles
I don't know what you are talking about. I have read the Bible and what you are saying does not make sense to me.
Do you understand there to be twelve tribes of Israel?
One law for the native and the sojourner.
The first believers after Christ's resurrection were Jewish. They were Israelites. The new covenant was for the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It came in Jesus Christ. Gentiles were grafted in. So there is Israel, the church, and the body of Christ, all God's chosen people.
As I stated in another message to you, Judaism and biblical Christianity are not compatible in this way. One can be a Jew and a Christian but one cannot practice Judaism and Christianity. People of any nationality or ethnic group can be Christian but a man cannot be split down the middle and practice two different religions. And make no mistake about it, Judaism and Christianity, while related are quite different and are not compatible with eachother.
Galatians 5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
I mean, look here, Jacob. You have to know that you're on shaky ground when the whole premise of your relious worldview is completely undermined by the quotation of one single sentence of the New Testament, which is THE ONLY defining document of the entire Christian faith.
Resting in Him,
Clete
P.S. Do yourself and favor and stop attempting to make any sense of clefty's posts. :kookoo:
you must have missed the part about all the obedient believers and the priest Melchizedek...all part of the church long before that one tribe...
sure...11 of them not of that tribe
That has been true since the fall in the garden...all have sinned...and are in need of a messiah...or you think it was just that tribe...
There was a Roman would had greater faith than all of them...
He was part of that new house of Israel...
As it was like the old sacrifices and the bread we are to remember Him with...only symbolic...
Not blood Israel but spiritual Israel...literally a (new) world of difference
I am a Jew and a Christian. Both are by choice. I was a Christian first.
In Judaism we have Messiah Yeshua and God's commands. The same in Christianity.
There is a covenant that God made with Israel at Mount Sinai. There is a covenant God promised to Israel, the house of Israel and the house of Judah, called the new covenant. It is God's law written on hearts and minds. It came in Yeshua (Jesus).
(Biblical) Christianity is not a new religion. Christianity is not a new religion. So there is still Judaism, with the expectation of a coming Messiah (Yeshua), Israel, and Biblical Judaism, first-century Judaism, etc....
You are saying things that are confusing to hear, and not Biblical.
its all biblical...there were faithful obedient believers who were a congregation long before that one tribe existed...you were speaking of the early church being only of that tribe...I was reminding you that prior that tribe there was worship and with a priest even...
You then asked me if I knew of the twelve tribes of Israel and answered indeed I do 11 of them not of that tribe...
You then made mention of the one law for native and non native to which I replied that the Law was the same for ALL since the fall in the garden...
You then went on about the first believers after the resurrection being of only that one tribe...so I attempted to remind you there were Romans who believed thus part of the ekklessia and one of the Romans it was said of by Yahushua that He had not seen such a faith in all of Israel...
Thus he was part of this new house of Israel...imagine that a Roman believer in the house of Jacob...of course it's now a spiritual Israel not of blood...you follow?
I tried to remind that it is all of a spiritual nature as even the sacrifices and the Eucharist bread are merely symbolic...metaphors to point to the One Who saves not actually salvific on their own merit...
So since spiritual Israel is symbolic of Yah's kingdom it is a world of difference from the temporal Zionist state which never sought the messiah but to be the messiah...thus this new world order will usher His true new world...
Hope that clarified and is satisfactorily biblical enough for ya...
Last edited:
I still don't know what you are talking about. What tribe are you talking about? I don't know what you mean by a spiritual Israel not of blood. What you are saying does not make sense Biblically as I understand it.
This might be why:
Quote Originally Posted by Jacob
"The Sabbath commandment is Jewish."
It is false and contaminates much religious thought and understanding...
This was true before Paul. It is no longer.
Galatians 5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
Resting in Him,
Clete
lol...
In developed countries many infants are cut for hygenic or medical reasons...guess Christ will profit them nothing...
The Ten Commandments are Jewish. The Sabbath is Jewish. But this does not mean that you cannot observe God's commandments. You can either become Jewish and observe God's commandments, or you can observe God's commandments without becoming Jewish.
Exodus 31:13 NLT - "Tell the people of Israel: 'Be careful to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you from generation to generation. It is given so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.
Ezekiel 20:12 NLT - And I gave them my Sabbath days of rest as a sign between them and me. It was to remind them that I am the LORD, who had set them apart to be holy.
Ezekiel 20:20 NLT - and keep my Sabbath days holy, for they are a sign to remind you that I am the LORD your God.'
Are you in covenant with God? Are you a part of His covenant? Do you live among His covenant people?
Do you have salvation?
Are you of the house of Israel or the house of Judah? Can you be grafted in? Have you been grafted in? Are you a new covenant believer?
Are you grafted in among His people? Are salvation and being grafted in related to or related at all to the new covenant?
The first covenant, which is called the old covenant, of the two covenants (God made a covenant with Israel through the prophet Moses, and God made a covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah (the new covenant)), came to Israel and the second covenant the new covenant did as well.
There are God's covenants and God's people.
You don't need to be circumcised to be among God's people. You may need to be circumcised to be of Israel.
I am circumcised.
Romans 4:11 NLT - Circumcision was a sign that Abraham already had faith and that God had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous--even before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the spiritual father of those who have faith but have not been circumcised. They are counted as righteous because of their faith.
Genesis 17:11 HCSB - You must circumcise the flesh of your foreskin to serve as a sign of the covenant between Me and you.
Last edited:
He may have been speaking against Judaizers. For he had Timothy circumcised.
Right Divider
Body part
Paul is not talking about hygiene.
Gal 5:2-4 (AKJV/PCE)
(5:2) Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. (5:3) For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. (5:4) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Just read it like its written and you should be able to understand it, maybe.
Paul it talking about trying to be justified before God by law keeping.
Wow...really? Well then we better change some scripture to say that...
Exodus 31:13 NLT - "Tell the people of Israel: 'Be careful to keep
Ezekiel 20:12 NLT - And I gave them
Ezekiel 20:20 NLT - and keep
There now it says what you claim and you may claim them as your days...
We might have to make further changes...
I believe so...(spiritual Isreal not Judah or temporal Israel)...is why I keep the Sabbath not to get in but because I already am...
And both covenants included the stranger...me. The Sabbath commandment is my pass key...
Pretty clear...don't circumcise to get into the house but because you already are...is why we normally do it to infants...adults have to weigh a little pain and discomfort against a symbolic sign you belong...is why it usually takes the persuasion of the Spirit and Comforter...lol
You do realize the poor lucky infants have no say in this choice...the parents do it for them
The parents decide to Whom the children belong ....the male infant is gifted back to the Creator on the eight day...it's only a sign the parents wished for him to be God's...
Now why would God institute an act the infant has no choice in? How could that act ever save that individual? They didn't choose it?
It's painful and most adults opt not to if they already aren't...as I said it takes the Spirit and Comforter to get one to do that...lol
But just cuz you be cut ain't no guarantee...
Just ask the idolatrous Israelite and Jews who were cut and then cut off...
I don't follow or believe what you say. The Sabbath commandment is one of the Ten Commandments. It was given to Israel as a sign.
See also Isaiah 56.
Isaiah 56:1-12 NASB - 1 Thus says the LORD, "Preserve justice and do righteousness, For My salvation is about to come And My righteousness to be revealed. 2 "How blessed is the man who does this, And the son of man who takes hold of it; Who keeps from profaning the sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil." 3 Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say, "The LORD will surely separate me from His people. "Nor let the eunuch say, "Behold, I am a dry tree." 4 For thus says the LORD, "To the eunuchs who keep My sabbaths, And choose what pleases Me, And hold fast My covenant, 5 To them I will give in My house and within My walls a memorial, And a name better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name which will not be cut off. 6 "Also the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, To minister to Him, and to love the name of the LORD, To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the sabbath And holds fast My covenant; 7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar; For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples." 8 The Lord GOD, who gathers the dispersed of Israel, declares, "Yet others I will gather to them, to those already gathered." 9 All you beasts of the field, All you beasts in the forest, Come to eat. 10 His watchmen are blind, All of them know nothing. All of them are mute dogs unable to bark, Dreamers lying down, who love to slumber; 11 And the dogs are greedy, they are not satisfied. And they are shepherds who have no understanding; They have all turned to their own way, Each one to his unjust gain, to the last one. 12 "Come," they say, "let us get wine, and let us drink heavily of strong drink; And tomorrow will be like today, only more so."
Would you agree that the Sabbath is for Christians whether the Christian is a Jew or not? It is possible to be of Israel and a Jew and believe in Yeshua as the Messiah, be saved, and not be called a Christian. The question is about what commands we observe, whether you are a Jew or not (or of Israel or not), and whether or not you have to be a Christian to be saved. It's not about saying God's commands are not for you. They are. But my understanding is that you cannot be a Jew or of Israel if you are not circumcised. You don't have to be either a Jew or circumcised to be saved and to be a Christian. But many Christians believe all of God's commands are for us. As a Christian I believe this is true, whether you have obeyed all of them or you have chosen to obey them, or you believe you will obey them or you want to obey them. You can. But the Judaizers would say you must, contrary to the gospel message. Is it possible to be a convert to Judaism and join Israel? Yes. Can you observe God's commands without being a part of the covenant God made with Israel at Mount Sinai, or without being a part of God's covenant people and observing all of Torah? Can you obey and observe God's commands without being circumcised? Yes. And yet circumcision is one of God's commands. My understanding is that like with all of the commands of God, they still are the commands of God. There may be commands that you don't observe. There may be commands that are not for you to observe. As a man you can observe the commands that are for men for example. If I am told that I should not make anyone a Jew, that I am not a Jew, that I can't observe the Sabbath because that is going back under the Law and falling from grace, that it is impossible to obey God's law, things like this... of course I am able to point to the fact that I am a convert and a Jew and that these commands are for me, without neglecting grace or salvation for all those who are of faith. These are my brothers and sisters in Christ. The body of Christ, the church.