The Religion of Blinding Bluster

[PureX]

I can't help but notice that most of the folks that visit this site are of a common type. That is the type of religious Christian that is usually male, usually quite aggressive and antagonistic toward others, and very 'legalistic'. The kind of persons for whom God, religion, life, people; everything is about being right or wrong. And they MUST be in the right, or see themselves as being in the right, at all times. Their religion is all and pretty much only about righteousness. Even to the exclusion of love, forgiveness, kindness, generosity, justice, unity, and reason. And it makes me curious about how and why these folks are so obsessed with the idea of righteousness. And especially with the idea of their own righteousness.

Were they raised in some horribly authoritarian environment where they were constantly threatened with dire consequences for any instance in which they could be found "wrong"? Were they brainwashed somewhere along the line to believe that God is some sort of unrelenting punisher of any and all human flaws and failures? Are they victims of this kind of religiously couched child abuse? Or is there some sort of internal psychosis that drives these people to have to see themselves as morally and ethically superior to everyone around them? Sort of like Donald Trump's narcissistic personality disorder?

I realize none of these people are going to be able to answer or speak to this question on this thread. As they will not be able to acknowledge their own thoughts and behaviors in this light. But there are a few of you that have been coming here for quite a long time, and that are not of this 'type' of religious Christian. (I'm sure it applies to people of other religions, too, but they are not likely to be tolerated for long, here, so I'm focusing on those that are.) And I am curious about what you think of this kind of dogmatic, blinding bluster, as a religious expression. Why you think it happens? And how do you, personally, respond to it. I do see some of you attempting to debate with these folks but that would appear to be totally ineffective. Like trying to debate Donald Trump. Once the need to be right usurps both fact and reason there really is no point to debating them with facts or reason, anymore. And what else is there?

Also, I don't 'dislike" these people nor see a need to change their point of view, necessarily. They are who they are and I appreciate them for that. I believe we humans are what we are supposed to be, and that includes our many foibles and idiosincracies. But they tend to leave us with no meaningful way of engaging with them. And no real way of even understanding why they've come to be on the path they're on. Maybe it's just none of my/our business, but I am a naturally curious soul. Especially when it comes to the various ways we humans come to see ourselves in relation to the world.

 

[Skeeter]

Somehow I don't think the type of people you mention are not going to be able to reflect on their own personality, attitude, and behavior. Lack of insight is pretty much their hallmark.

 

[annabenedetti]

I can't help but notice that most of the folks that visit this site are of a common type. That is the type of religious Christian that is usually male, usually quite aggressive and antagonistic toward others, and very 'legalistic'. The kind of persons for whom God, religion, life, people; everything is about being right or wrong. And they MUST be in the right, or see themselves as being in the right, at all times. Their religion is all and pretty much only about righteousness. Even to the exclusion of love, forgiveness, kindness, generosity, justice, unity, and reason. And it makes me curious about how and why these folks are so obsessed with the idea of righteousness. And especially with the idea of their own righteousness.

Were they raised in some horribly authoritarian environment where they were constantly threatened with dire consequences for any instance in which they could be found "wrong"? Were they brainwashed somewhere along the line to believe that God is some sort of unrelenting punisher of any and all human flaws and failures?

Your opening sentences reminded me of the story of Megan Phelps, granddaughter of Westboro Baptist founder Fred Phelps. I read her story some years back and posted it here because it reminded me of some of the posters here. It's a very interesting read, for someone with a curious mind and an interest in the way people think and believe.

Unfollow​

How a prized daughter of the Westboro Baptist Church came to question its beliefs.​

On December 1, 2009, to commemorate World AIDS Day, Twitter announced a promotion: if users employed the hashtag #red, their tweets would appear highlighted in red. Megan Phelps-Roper, a twenty-three-year-old legal assistant, seized the opportunity. “Thank God for AIDS!” she tweeted that morning. “You won’t repent of your rebellion that brought His wrath on you in this incurable scourge, so expect more & worse! #red.”

As a member of the Westboro Baptist Church, in Topeka, Kansas, Phelps-Roper believed that AIDS was a curse sent by God. She believed that all manner of other tragedies—war, natural disaster, mass shootings—were warnings from God to a doomed nation, and that it was her duty to spread the news of His righteous judgments. To protest the increasing acceptance of homosexuality in America, the Westboro Baptist Church picketed the funerals of gay men who died of AIDS and of soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. Members held signs with slogans like “God Hates Fags” and “Thank God for Dead soldiers,” and the outrage that their efforts attracted had turned the small church, which had fewer than a hundred members, into a global symbol of hatred.

. . . .

Obedience was one of the most important values that Shirley instilled in Megan. She would sum up the Bible in three words: “Obey. Obey. Obey.” The smallest hint of dissent was seen as an intolerable act of rebellion against God. Megan was taught that there would always be a tension between what she felt and thought as a human and what the Bible required of her. But giving place to rebellious thoughts was the first step down the path toward Hell. “The tone of your voice or the look on your face—you could get into so much trouble for these things, because they betray what’s in your heart,” she said. Her parents took to heart the proverb “He that spareth his rod hateth his son.” Her uncle gave them a novelty wooden paddle inscribed with the tongue-in-cheek direction “May be used on any child from 5 to 75,” and her father hung it on the wall next to the family photos. The joke hit close to home for Phelps-Roper, who was spanked well into her teens. Sometimes, she told me, “it went too far, for sure.” But, she added, “I also always knew that they were just trying to do what God required of them.”

 

[ok doser]

And they MUST be in the right, or see themselves as being in the right, at all times.

Hello pot

 

[Idolater]

Somehow I don't think the type of people you mention are gong to be able to reflect on their own personality, attitude, and behavior. Lack of insight is pretty much their hallmark.

Whereas lack of critical thought is Skeeter's.

 

[ok doser]

Somehow I don't think the type of people you mention are gong to be able to reflect on their own personality

I have reflected upon my own personality and I find it acceptable. It works for me. It allows me to successfully interact with the people that I want to. It allows me to disregard the idiots in the world that surround me.

attitude,

Ditto

and behavior.

Ditto

Lack of insight is pretty much their hallmark.

... sez the non-Christian who trolls a Christian site for his own silly amusement

 

[PureX]

Your opening sentences reminded me of the story of Megan Phelps, granddaughter of Westboro Baptist founder Fred Phelps. I read her story some years back and posted it here because it reminded me of some of the posters here. It's a very interesting read, for someone with a curious mind and an interest in the way people think and believe.

Sometimes, she told me, “it went too far, for sure.” But, she added, “I also always knew that they were just trying to do what God required of them.”

I find this statement very interesting in that it offers the word "love" but is not referring to the actuality of love, but rather to the actuality of control. And this causes me to wonder if these children were ever shown actual love, or if they were simply shown a need/desire to control them through force that was being falsely called "love"; resulting in their never understanding the real life difference between love and control?

For example, to love someone is to love them for who they are, not for who we imagine or wish them to be. And so does not include a desire to make them be someone other than who they are, and into someone we'd prefer them to be. Especially by force of their suffering. Is it possible that there is a generational lack of understanding in this regard that keeps reiterating itself, as confused children grow up to become confused parents who then confuse their own children, and so on? Creating an ongoing culture of people who think love = control-via-punishment?

The evidence would suggest that this is a likely component, I think. But I also suspect it's more complex then that. And I am still curious about this apparent need/desire to control others, and even those one would claim to love, by force.

 

[PureX]

Somehow I don't think the type of people you mention are gong to be able to reflect on their own personality, attitude, and behavior. Lack of insight is pretty much their hallmark.

I expect we're all guilty of that to one degree or another.

 

[Hoping]

I can't help but notice that most of the folks that visit this site are of a common type. That is the type of religious Christian that is usually male, usually quite aggressive and antagonistic toward others, and very 'legalistic'. The kind of persons for whom God, religion, life, people; everything is about being right or wrong. And they MUST be in the right, or see themselves as being in the right, at all times. Their religion is all and pretty much only about righteousness. Even to the exclusion of love, forgiveness, kindness, generosity, justice, unity, and reason. And it makes me curious about how and why these folks are so obsessed with the idea of righteousness. And especially with the idea of their own righteousness.

Were they raised in some horribly authoritarian environment where they were constantly threatened with dire consequences for any instance in which they could be found "wrong"? Were they brainwashed somewhere along the line to believe that God is some sort of unrelenting punisher of any and all human flaws and failures? Are they victims of this kind of religiously couched child abuse? Or is there some sort of internal psychosis that drives these people to have to see themselves as morally and ethically superior to everyone around them? Sort of like Donald Trump's narcissistic personality disorder?

I realize none of these people are going to be able to answer or speak to this question on this thread. As they will not be able to acknowledge their own thoughts and behaviors in this light. But there are a few of you that have been coming here for quite a long time, and that are not of this 'type' of religious Christian. (I'm sure it applies to people of other religions, too, but they are not likely to be tolerated for long, here, so I'm focusing on those that are.) And I am curious about what you think of this kind of dogmatic, blinding bluster, as a religious expression. Why you think it happens? And how do you, personally, respond to it. I do see some of you attempting to debate with these folks but that would appear to be totally ineffective. Like trying to debate Donald Trump. Once the need to be right usurps both fact and reason there really is no point to debating them with facts or reason, anymore. And what else is there?

Also, I don't 'dislike" these people nor see a need to change their point of view, necessarily. They are who they are and I appreciate them for that. I believe we humans are what we are supposed to be, and that includes our many foibles and idiosincracies. But they tend to leave us with no meaningful way of engaging with them. And no real way of even understanding why they've come to be on the path they're on. Maybe it's just none of my/our business, but I am a naturally curious soul. Especially when it comes to the various ways we humans come to see ourselves in relation to the world.

Now that you have identified the traits of the posers, and know the difference between posers and real Christians, are you ready for the next step?
That being, which do you want to be?
Do you want to finish your life living like the posers you identified or as a real Christians you seem to be familiar with?

 

[marke]

Your opening sentences reminded me of the story of Megan Phelps, granddaughter of Westboro Baptist founder Fred Phelps. I read her story some years back and posted it here because it reminded me of some of the posters here. It's a very interesting read, for someone with a curious mind and an interest in the way people think and believe.

Unfollow​

How a prized daughter of the Westboro Baptist Church came to question its beliefs.​

On December 1, 2009, to commemorate World AIDS Day, Twitter announced a promotion: if users employed the hashtag #red, their tweets would appear highlighted in red. Megan Phelps-Roper, a twenty-three-year-old legal assistant, seized the opportunity. “Thank God for AIDS!” she tweeted that morning. “You won’t repent of your rebellion that brought His wrath on you in this incurable scourge, so expect more & worse! #red.”

As a member of the Westboro Baptist Church, in Topeka, Kansas, Phelps-Roper believed that AIDS was a curse sent by God. She believed that all manner of other tragedies—war, natural disaster, mass shootings—were warnings from God to a doomed nation, and that it was her duty to spread the news of His righteous judgments. To protest the increasing acceptance of homosexuality in America, the Westboro Baptist Church picketed the funerals of gay men who died of AIDS and of soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. Members held signs with slogans like “God Hates Fags” and “Thank God for Dead soldiers,” and the outrage that their efforts attracted had turned the small church, which had fewer than a hundred members, into a global symbol of hatred.

. . . .

Obedience was one of the most important values that Shirley instilled in Megan. She would sum up the Bible in three words: “Obey. Obey. Obey.” The smallest hint of dissent was seen as an intolerable act of rebellion against God. Megan was taught that there would always be a tension between what she felt and thought as a human and what the Bible required of her. But giving place to rebellious thoughts was the first step down the path toward Hell. “The tone of your voice or the look on your face—you could get into so much trouble for these things, because they betray what’s in your heart,” she said. Her parents took to heart the proverb “He that spareth his rod hateth his son.” Her uncle gave them a novelty wooden paddle inscribed with the tongue-in-cheek direction “May be used on any child from 5 to 75,” and her father hung it on the wall next to the family photos. The joke hit close to home for Phelps-Roper, who was spanked well into her teens. Sometimes, she told me, “it went too far, for sure.” But, she added, “I also always knew that they were just trying to do what God required of them.”

How does a typical genius sum up his life on his deathbed after living all his adult life as a committed rebel against God? Here is what we know about Voltaire, dying at 84 years of age:

Voltaire famous anti-christian atheist: “I am abandoned by God and man; I will give you half of what I am worth if you will give me six months’ life.” (He said this to Dr. Fochin, who told him it could not be done.) “Then I shall die and go to hell!” (His nurse said: “For all the money in Europe I wouldn’t want to see another unbeliever die! All night long he cried for forgiveness.”)

 

[PureX]

Now that you have identified the traits of the posers, and know the difference between posers and real Christians, are you ready for the next step?
That being, which do you want to be?

Why are you asking me that? What's it to you what I want to be or what my "next step" is? Seriously, I'm honestly asking. Because it appears as though you are seeing yourself as being in some sort of 'charge' of my choices, or as if you're in some sort of 'overseer' position, and I don't get that idea at all. If you could explain it I would appreciate it.

Do you want to finish your life living like the posers you identified or as a real Christians you seem to be familiar with?

I don't think anyone is "posing", here. I think the people I am referring to in OP of this thread are behaving in accordance with who they think they are and how they were raised. I think they believe what they say they believe and they try to live accordingly. I don't agree at all with how they view Christ, and I find a lot of their ideas and behaviors toxic to humanity, including even to themselves, but to call them "posers" implies that they know better. And I don't think they do know better. I think their minds have been poisoned by a toxic ideology, and they are trapped, now, by it's absurd over-reliance on 'righteousness'.

 

[PureX]

How does a typical genius sum up his life on his deathbed after living all his adult life as a committed rebel against God? Here is what we know about Voltaire, dying at 84 years of age:

Voltaire famous anti-christian atheist: “I am abandoned by God and man; I will give you half of what I am worth if you will give me six months’ life.” (He said this to Dr. Fochin, who told him it could not be done.) “Then I shall die and go to hell!” (His nurse said: “For all the money in Europe I wouldn’t want to see another unbeliever die! All night long he cried for forgiveness.”)

He needn't have bothered with all the moaning and crying. He was forgiven the moment his heart felt sincere remorse.

 

[way 2 go]

Lack of insight is pretty much their hallmark.

confession through projection

 

[ok doser]

He needn't have bothered with all the moaning and crying. He was forgiven the moment his heart felt sincere remorse.

Is that what you believe?
Is that your reality?

 

[way 2 go]

Once the need to be right usurps both fact and reason there really is no point to debating them with facts or reason, anymore. And what else is there?

needing to be right necessarily needs to be supported by facts and reason.

 

[annabenedetti]

I find this statement very interesting in that it offers the word "love" but is not referring to the actuality of love, but rather to the actuality of control. And this causes me to wonder if these children were ever shown actual love, or if they were simply shown a need/desire to control them through force that was being falsely called "love"; resulting in their never understanding the real life difference between love and control?

As in the parent administering the corporal punishment: "I'm only doing this because I love you."

Or blanket training.

When the need for parental control justified by religious authority is more of a driving force than parental love, somewhere in there, that control is feeding off the fear their child will end up deviating from the parental teaching. No doubt in most cases the controlling parent loves their children, but their fear of the loss of control is right there with it.

For example, to love someone is to love them for who they are, not for who we imagine or wish them to be. And so does not include a desire to make them be someone other than who they are, and into someone we'd prefer them to be. Especially by force of their suffering.

Very well said.

Is it possible that there is a generational lack of understanding in this regard that keeps reiterating itself, as confused children grow up to become confused parents who then confuse their own children, and so on? Creating an ongoing culture of people who think love = control-via-punishment?

The evidence would suggest that this is a likely component, I think. But I also suspect it's more complex then that. And I am still curious about this apparent need/desire to control others, and even those one would claim to love, by force.

Another component has to be religious ideology. An ELCA parent is likely going to parent much differently than an SBC parent, for example.

Also, parental peer pressure is a thing, particularly the more the parents are involved in their religious communities, and the more likely parents are to fear that their children will shame them.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Also, parental peer pressure is a thing, particularly the more the parents are involved in their religious communities, and the more likely parents are to fear that their children will shame them.

Do you think it wrong for a parent to fear their child shaming them?

Does God say anything about it?

 

[ok doser]

... the more likely parents are to fear that their children will shame them.

 

[Hoping]

Why are you asking me that? What's it to you what I want to be or what my "next step" is? Seriously, I'm honestly asking. Because it appears as though you are seeing yourself as being in some sort of 'charge' of my choices, or as if you're in some sort of 'overseer' position, and I don't get that idea at all. If you could explain it I would appreciate it.

Just asking a question.
You seemed to see a difference that is real, and seemed to be against the posers, so I ask if the real thing appeals to you?

I don't think anyone is "posing", here. I think the people I am referring to in OP of this thread are behaving in accordance with who they think they are and how they were raised. I think they believe what they say they believe and they try to live accordingly. I don't agree at all with how they view Christ, and I find a lot of their ideas and behaviors toxic to humanity, including even to themselves, but to call them "posers" implies that they know better. And I don't think they do know better. I think their minds have been poisoned by a toxic ideology, and they are trapped, now, by it's absurd over-reliance on 'righteousness'.

I do think some are "posing here".
If they are toxic, it is apparent they are not emulating Christ.
There is a group that is non-toxic and loves their fellow humans.

 

[marke]

He needn't have bothered with all the moaning and crying. He was forgiven the moment his heart felt sincere remorse.

You should seriously consider the real possibility that you are dead wrong about that.