The Religion of Blinding Bluster

[PureX]

needing to be right necessarily needs to be supported by facts and reason.

It depends on how badly one needs to be right. As with any addiction, one's need can greatly overpower fact or reason.

 

[ok doser]

needing to be right necessarily needs to be supported by facts and reason.

Fact: I'm always right. Need doesn't enter into it.

Reason: Because I said so.

 

[PureX]

Just asking a question.
You seemed to see a difference that is real, and seemed to be against the posers, so I ask if the real thing appeals to you?

Yes, there is. The story of Christ in the NT brings us the revelation and promise that if we will allow God's love to act within us and through us to others it will heal us and save us from ourselves, and help us to help others in the same way. It's not about "obedience" or "righteousness". It's about setting our own fear and selfishness aside and allowing ourselves to become the embodiment of God's love, each in our own way and in our own small corner of the world. And when enough of us have committed to doing this, the whole world will be healed and saved (from us).

It's not about religion, or adhering to religious dogma, laws, rituals and rules. Jesus was a Jew. And Jews both then and now are not evangelical. They do not believe anyone has to convert to Judaism to be "right with God". So Jesus was not starting a new religion, to replace his own. He was only talking as a Jew to his fellow Jews about maintaining their Judaism. As any Jew then or now would do. So I don;t buy into any of this hyper-religiosity and Christian exclusionism, or even evangelism beyond spreading the revelation and promise of Christ about the healing power of God's love within us.

I do think some are "posing here".
If they are toxic, it is apparent they are not emulating Christ.
There is a group that is non-toxic and loves their fellow humans.

Some are confused about what Christ is. They think it's a religious dogma that they must adhere to, to "get to heaven". This is sad, and unfortunate, as it feeds the fear and selfishness that aligning with God's love would otherwise heal. It's why they become toxic both to themselves and others. But I don't know what to do about that. It seems God has decreed that we each must decide for ourselves how we are going to live our lives. And they have chosen to make a religion of self-righteousness, thinking that it will save them. I don;t think it will save anyone, but I am not God, so what do I know?

 

[PureX]

You should seriously consider the real possibility that you are dead wrong about that.

That possibility always exists. For any of us. But fearing the worst, in ignorance, doesn't seem like a very logical or effective way to live.

 

[PureX]

As in the parent administering the corporal punishment: "I'm only doing this because I love you."

Or blanket training.

When the need for parental control justified by religious authority is more of a driving force than parental love, somewhere in there, that control is feeding off the fear their child will end up deviating from the parental teaching. No doubt in most cases the controlling parent loves their children, but their fear of the loss of control is right there with it.



Very well said.



Another component has to be religious ideology. An ELCA parent is likely going to parent much differently than an SBC parent, for example.

Also, parental peer pressure is a thing, particularly the more the parents are involved in their religious communities, and the more likely parents are to fear that their children will shame them.

There is an aspect to religiosity, though, that I cannot avoid, here. And that is that personalities are drawn to the religions and religiuos ideologies that enable them. That is most people choose the religious paths that justify and rationalize who they already are, as opposed to choosing a religious path that will help them change who they already are. Because they don't want to see themselves as being in need of change. Especially morally or spiritually. So, although I agree that religion can and does become a form of collective abuse, in most cultures, people are free to jettison them when they become adults. And even before that, on an internal level. So there is something more to this story than just being raised in an abusive religious environment, because people are choosing to remain in that environment when they could leave it. There is something clearly attractive about it.

And I think that attraction is the control. I think all humans crave control, and abused humans crave it all the more-so.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Yes, there is. The story of Christ in the NT brings us the revelation and promise that if we will allow God's love to act within us and through us to others it will heal us and save us from ourselves, and help us to help others in the same way. It's not about "obedience" or "righteousness". It's about setting our own fear and selfishness aside and allowing ourselves to become the embodiment of God's love, each in our own way and in our own small corner of the world. And when enough of us have committed to doing this, the whole world will be healed and saved (from us).

That's not what "the story of Christ in the NT" is about at all...

Again, I ask, have you ever actually read the Bible from cover to cover? Because the story it tells is completely different than what you make it out to be.

It's not about religion, or adhering to religious dogma, laws, rituals and rules.

The "story of Christ in the NT" was about the Jews' disobedience to her God, how they had departed from the will of God.

Jesus was a Jew.

Yes He was. And guess what? The Jews are known as "the people of the circumcision." And circumcision is a synecdoche for the law. In other words: The nation of Israel is a nation of law.

Jesus came preaching, you guessed it, THE LAW! He taught that if one DOES NOT KEEP THE LAW, he will not see the Kingdom of Israel.

It's nowhere near this false teaching you have come up with, that "if we will allow God's love to act within us and through us to others it will heal us and save us from ourselves, and help us to help others in the same way."

And Jews both then and now are not evangelical.

Oversimplifying what the Bible says has resulted in this misconception of yours that the Jews did not and should not under any circumstance go out and preach their New Covenant. It's a complete misunderstanding of what the Bible says!

They do not believe anyone has to convert to Judaism to be "right with God".

Under the New Covenant that God made with Israel, that is EXACTLY what is required!

So Jesus was not starting a new religion, to replace his own.

In the normal use of the word "religion," no.

What He WAS doing was correcting what the Jews believed the law said, reminding them of what it ACTUALLY says, because they had drifted off course due to their disobedience to God.

He was only talking as a Jew to his fellow Jews about maintaining their Judaism.

False.

He was preaching the gospel of the Kingdom of Israel under the New Covenant.

As any Jew then or now would do.

False.

So I don;t buy into any of this hyper-religiosity

Don't confuse "hyper-religiosity" with "being passionate for Christ."

and Christian exclusionism,

There is only one way to Heaven, and that is through Christ Jesus.

It's not through keeping of the law.
It's not through your new-age nonsense.

It's through placing one's trust in Christ and believing that He is LORD!

Christianity is the only "religion" that teaches this, thus it is, by definition, exclusive of all other religions.

or even evangelism beyond spreading the revelation and promise of Christ about the healing power of God's love within us.

More new-age nonsense.

Some are confused about what Christ is.

Look in a mirror, hypocrite!

They think it's a religious dogma that they must adhere to, to "get to heaven".

Supra.

This is sad, and unfortunate, as it feeds the fear and selfishness that aligning with God's love would otherwise heal. It's why they become toxic both to themselves and others.

More straw man accusations.

But I don't know what to do about that.

Here's a good place to start: Learn what Christians like myself ACTUALLY teach, instead of this straw man you have fabricated and keep knocking down.

It seems God has decreed that we each must decide for ourselves how we are going to live our lives.

Which has nothing to do with this.

And they have chosen to make a religion of self-righteousness, thinking that it will save them.

1) No Christian claims to be righteous on his own merit.
2) It is Christ who saves. He saves those who place their trust in Him. Thus, we boast in Him, not in our own righteousness, but in His righteousness which is imparted to those whom He saves.

I don't think

Clearly.

. . . It will save anyone,

Supra.

but I am not God,

So why do you keep posting like you are?

so what do I know?

That much is obvious: Very little.

 

[annabenedetti]

There is an aspect to religiosity, though, that I cannot avoid, here. And that is that personalities are drawn to the religions and religiuos ideologies that enable them. That is most people choose the religious paths that justify and rationalize who they already are, as opposed to choosing a religious path that will help them change who they already are. Because they don't want to see themselves as being in need of change. Especially morally or spiritually. So, although I agree that religion can and does become a form of collective abuse, in most cultures, people are free to jettison them when they become adults. And even before that, on an internal level. So there is something more to this story than just being raised in an abusive religious environment, because people are choosing to remain in that environment when they could leave it. There is something clearly attractive about it.

And I think that attraction is the control. I think all humans crave control, and abused humans crave it all the more-so.

I don't know, PureX. To a point I've agreed that control can have a large part to play in more authoritarian religions.

Allowing for nuance though, humans are remarkably similar in how they process their environment. People have always been tribal, for example. A sense of belonging is a basic need, and religions fill that need in many people, whether it's shared belief, a sense of community, the certainty that their religion is the 'best' one. Not surprisingly, the majority of the world subscribes to some form of belief, even if it's rote or mostly a cultural identity. This is pretty basic but humans have an innate need for an explanations for their mental, emotional and physical experiences - for suffering, for blessing, loss, heartache, peace, fear. They may hope for a world beyond this one, that makes this one with all its joys and sorrows worth trudging through.

There are a lot of predictable human behaviors. For the purposes of your thread let's take decision-making: choosing a religious belief that resonates (or makes an adult reaffirmation of a childhood belief). One cognitive behavior has to do with making sure we're happy with the decisions we make. It's instinctive to enhance the value of a choice or belief, and to devalue the other options that were available. Human brains work very hard to avoid the idea they may have made the wrong choice.

Familiarity is another thing. Humans like familiarity, predictability. As a Catholic, I can see this in myself, the comfort that the familiarity of ritual can bring. And maybe comfort is a stand-in for belief, when belief wavers. Cognitively, of course I know the difference between the two. Ritual doesn't replace faith, but it can open a pathway to reinforcement of that belief, similar to when a Protestant opens their Bible when the pastor says "today let's turn to..." I don't pretend to know the rituals of other religions, but it's a safe bet there are comparisons to be made.

Trying to put thoughts down, and not very well. I need more coffee.

 

[marke]

That possibility always exists. For any of us. But fearing the worst, in ignorance, doesn't seem like a very logical or effective way to live.

Don't take unnecessary chances. Just follow God's instructions to make sure you are saved.

2 Peter 1
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

 

[Skeeter]

I have reflected upon my own personality and I find it acceptable.

Confirmation bias.

It works for me. It allows me to successfully interact with the people that I want to.

Selection bias

It allows me to disregard the idiots in the world that surround me.

Cognitive dissonance.

Ditto

Ditto

Stutter

... sez the non-Christian who trolls a Christian site for his own silly amusement

Confession through projection.

Cheers.

 

[PureX]

I don't know, PureX. To a point I've agreed that control can have a large part to play in more authoritarian religions.

Allowing for nuance though, humans are remarkably similar in how they process their environment. People have always been tribal, for example. A sense of belonging is a basic need, and religions fill that need in many people, whether it's shared belief, a sense of community, the certainty that their religion is the 'best' one. Not surprisingly, the majority of the world subscribes to some form of belief, even if it's rote or mostly a cultural identity. This is pretty basic but humans have an innate need for an explanations for their mental, emotional and physical experiences - for suffering, for blessing, loss, heartache, peace, fear. They may hope for a world beyond this one, that makes this one with all its joys and sorrows worth trudging through.

There are a lot of predictable human behaviors. For the purposes of your thread let's take decision-making: choosing a religious belief that resonates (or makes an adult reaffirmation of a childhood belief). One cognitive behavior has to do with making sure we're happy with the decisions we make. It's instinctive to enhance the value of a choice or belief, and to devalue the other options that were available. Human brains work very hard to avoid the idea they may have made the wrong choice.

Familiarity is another thing. Humans like familiarity, predictability. As a Catholic, I can see this in myself, the comfort that the familiarity of ritual can bring. And maybe comfort is a stand-in for belief, when belief wavers. Cognitively, of course I know the difference between the two. Ritual doesn't replace faith, but it can open a pathway to reinforcement of that belief, similar to when a Protestant opens their Bible when the pastor says "today let's turn to..." I don't pretend to know the rituals of other religions, but it's a safe bet there are comparisons to be made.

Trying to put thoughts down, and not very well. I need more coffee.

These are all observations and characteristics that apply to pretty much all humans, though. I'm more interested in why a relatively small percentage of humans become obsessed with the idea of being 'righteous'. To the point where it trumps all other concerns in terms of importance and it governs all their interactions with other humans.

I recognize that all humans desire to control the circumstances of their own fate. Manipulating our circumstances and ourselves in relation to those circumstances is what we humans do to survive and thrive in the world. And so it's no surprise that we become nervous and vulnerable when we find ourselves confronted with the limitations of our ability to control our world. Nor is it a surprise that we might respond to that discomfort by desperately grasping for more control, and even for the illusion of it in lieu of the real thing. But these are all things that all humans will do as a natural consequence of how we have come to survive in the world. And yet for a few of us, this need to see and feel oneself to be in maximum control at all times has become an obsession so powerful that it overwhelms nearly any other driving motives.

I believe the desire for abject 'righteousness' is really a desire for some illusion of control. Because that's what being "right" about things does for us. At least so we think. It gives us the ability to then control those circumstances that we believe we're "right" about, or to control our own position in relation to those circumstances, to gain our own advantage.

 

[Hoping]

Yes, there is. The story of Christ in the NT brings us the revelation and promise that if we will allow God's love to act within us and through us to others it will heal us and save us from ourselves, and help us to help others in the same way. It's not about "obedience" or "righteousness". It's about setting our own fear and selfishness aside and allowing ourselves to become the embodiment of God's love, each in our own way and in our own small corner of the world. And when enough of us have committed to doing this, the whole world will be healed and saved (from us).

Doesn't that entail obedience and righteousness?
Murderers, addict, adulterers, and haters are the farthest thing from the unselfish, embodiment of Christ.

It's not about religion, or adhering to religious dogma, laws, rituals and rules. Jesus was a Jew. And Jews both then and now are not evangelical. They do not believe anyone has to convert to Judaism to be "right with God". So Jesus was not starting a new religion, to replace his own. He was only talking as a Jew to his fellow Jews about maintaining their Judaism.

It seems to me, He came to move the Jews, (and anyone else so inclined), from their old ways and up to His ways.

As any Jew then or now would do. So I don;t buy into any of this hyper-religiosity and Christian exclusionism, or even evangelism beyond spreading the revelation and promise of Christ about the healing power of God's love within us.

You want the "prize" but don't want to "run the race"...it seems.
Will the "love of God within us" allow others to miss what we have been given, freely, by God?

Some are confused about what Christ is. They think it's a religious dogma that they must adhere to, to "get to heaven". This is sad, and unfortunate, as it feeds the fear and selfishness that aligning with God's love would otherwise heal. It's why they become toxic both to themselves and others. But I don't know what to do about that. It seems God has decreed that we each must decide for ourselves how we are going to live our lives. And they have chosen to make a religion of self-righteousness, thinking that it will save them. I don;t think it will save anyone, but I am not God, so what do I know?

Everyone must, indeed, decide for themselves.
But the decision is "which road will we walk?".
Will we maintain a "me first" attitude or a "you first" attitude?
Love is a dogma, and without it all one has is hate.
If you want to know "what to do about it", just ask.

 

[Hoping]

These are all observations and characteristics that apply to pretty much all humans, though. I'm more interested in why a relatively small percentage of humans become obsessed with the idea of being 'righteous'. To the point where it trumps all other concerns in terms of importance and it governs all their interactions with other humans.

It is because "righteousness" equals "love".
There are no loving adulterers, liars, or murderers.

I recognize that all humans desire to control the circumstances of their own fate. Manipulating our circumstances and ourselves in relation to those circumstances is what we humans do to survive and thrive in the world. And so it's no surprise that we become nervous and vulnerable when we find ourselves confronted with the limitations of our ability to control our world. Nor is it a surprise that we might respond to that discomfort by desperately grasping for more control, and even for the illusion of it in lieu of the real thing. But these are all things that all humans will do as a natural consequence of how we have come to survive in the world. And yet for a few of us, this need to see and feel oneself to be in maximum control at all times has become an obsession so powerful that it overwhelms nearly any other driving motives.

I believe the desire for abject 'righteousness' is really a desire for some illusion of control. Because that's what being "right" about things does for us. At least so we think. It gives us the ability to then control those circumstances that we believe we're "right" about, or to control our own position in relation to those circumstances, to gain our own advantage.

If you are righteous, the control isn't an illusion.
It is Christ in me, the hope of glory.
It is Him in me doing the "works" of love , consideration, and mercy.
Being a "good guy" is not a bad thing.
It surely beats any alternative life style.

 

[Yorzhik]

And they MUST be in the right, or see themselves as being in the right, at all times.

Tell us something you know is wrong but you believe it anyway.

Their religion is all and pretty much only about righteousness. Even to the exclusion of love, forgiveness, kindness, generosity, justice, unity, and reason.

This is a serious charge. Do you believe you are right about this?

Once the need to be right usurps both fact and reason there really is no point to debating them with facts or reason, anymore.

Are you sure you are qualified to judge when someone's need to win a debate usurps both fact and reason? Can you give us an example?

But they tend to leave us with no meaningful way of engaging with them. And no real way of even understanding why they've come to be on the path they're on.

Can you give us an example?

 

[Yorzhik]

I don't agree at all with how they view Christ, and I find a lot of their ideas and behaviors toxic to humanity, including even to themselves, but to call them "posers" implies that they know better. And I don't think they do know better. I think their minds have been poisoned by a toxic ideology, and they are trapped, now, by it's absurd over-reliance on 'righteousness'.

Saying people have toxic ideas is a pretty serious accusation. Are you sure you are right about that?

 

[Jenkins]

I can't help but notice that most of the folks that visit this site are of a common type. That is the type of religious Christian that is usually male, usually quite aggressive and antagonistic toward others, and very 'legalistic'. The kind of persons for whom God, religion, life, people; everything is about being right or wrong. And they MUST be in the right, or see themselves as being in the right, at all times. Their religion is all and pretty much only about righteousness. Even to the exclusion of love, forgiveness, kindness, generosity, justice, unity, and reason. And it makes me curious about how and why these folks are so obsessed with the idea of righteousness. And especially with the idea of their own righteousness.

Were they raised in some horribly authoritarian environment where they were constantly threatened with dire consequences for any instance in which they could be found "wrong"? Were they brainwashed somewhere along the line to believe that God is some sort of unrelenting punisher of any and all human flaws and failures? Are they victims of this kind of religiously couched child abuse? Or is there some sort of internal psychosis that drives these people to have to see themselves as morally and ethically superior to everyone around them? Sort of like Donald Trump's narcissistic personality disorder?

I realize none of these people are going to be able to answer or speak to this question on this thread. As they will not be able to acknowledge their own thoughts and behaviors in this light. But there are a few of you that have been coming here for quite a long time, and that are not of this 'type' of religious Christian. (I'm sure it applies to people of other religions, too, but they are not likely to be tolerated for long, here, so I'm focusing on those that are.) And I am curious about what you think of this kind of dogmatic, blinding bluster, as a religious expression. Why you think it happens? And how do you, personally, respond to it. I do see some of you attempting to debate with these folks but that would appear to be totally ineffective. Like trying to debate Donald Trump. Once the need to be right usurps both fact and reason there really is no point to debating them with facts or reason, anymore. And what else is there?

Also, I don't 'dislike" these people nor see a need to change their point of view, necessarily. They are who they are and I appreciate them for that. I believe we humans are what we are supposed to be, and that includes our many foibles and idiosincracies. But they tend to leave us with no meaningful way of engaging with them. And no real way of even understanding why they've come to be on the path they're on. Maybe it's just none of my/our business, but I am a naturally curious soul. Especially when it comes to the various ways we humans come to see ourselves in relation to the world.

Did the Spanish Inquisitors have internal psychosis to confine, torture, and murder those who did not agree with them?

 

[PureX]

Doesn't that entail obedience and righteousness?
Murderers, addict, adulterers, and haters are the farthest thing from the unselfish, embodiment of Christ.

If you need laws and rules to tell you how to love your fellow humans, you clearly don't know how to love your fllow humans. All those laws and rules are for those who do not recognize God's spirit within them. For those who do, obedience and righteousness are no longer an issue.

It seems to me, He came to move the Jews, (and anyone else so inclined), from their old ways and up to His ways.

He came to reveal to us that God's spirit dwells within us all. And that if we will set our own fears and selfishness aside, and become the embodiment of that spirit within, we will be healed and saved from ourselves, and can help to heal and save others. It was a revelation that anyone of any religion, or of no religion, could understand, and try for themselves. And it still is.

You want the "prize" but don't want to "run the race"...it seems.

There is no race to run except to set aside our fear and selfishness and let that divine spirit within us, guide us. And there is no prize except that we fulfill our true purpose in this world and meet God within each other. Sometimes it's difficult, especially when those around us are acting out of their own fear and selfishness like drowning men grasping at anything to stay afloat. But that's where faith comes in. We do what we can and trust that it will be enough in the end.

Will the "love of God within us" allow others to miss what we have been given, freely, by God?

If they cannot see the love within themselves, perhaps they can see it within us, by how we treat them.

Everyone must, indeed, decide for themselves.
But the decision is "which road will we walk?".
Will we maintain a "me first" attitude or a "you first" attitude?
Love is a dogma, and without it all one has is hate.
If you want to know "what to do about it", just ask.

Love is a way of being, not a dogma. Without it we are just dumb animals obeying the needs and the whims of our bodies. To become human, we have to rise above that, and realize that love transcends materialism.

 

[PureX]

It is because "righteousness" equals "love".
There are no loving adulterers, liars, or murderers.

Love is far more than not lying, cheating or killing. And it certainly is not about being "right".

 

[PureX]

Saying people have toxic ideas is a pretty serious accusation. Are you sure you are right about that?

You're really missing the point, here.

 

[PureX]

Did the Spanish Inquisitors have internal psychosis to confine, torture, and murder those who did not agree with them?

I don't know why they did those things. I suspect there were a lot of reasons, not the least of which was a genetic drive to dominate their fellow humans by the force of violence and viciousness. A genetic drive that exists in some people, even today.

 

[marke]

I don't know why they did those things. I suspect there were a lot of reasons, not the least of which was a genetic drive to dominate their fellow humans by the force of violence and viciousness. A genetic drive that exists in some people, even today.

Whether genes are involved or not murdering babies by abortion is insane and those promoting abortion are uncivilized barbarians, just like the savages who burned innocent Christians at the stake.