ECT The Real Most Miisunderstood Passage in the Bible John 3

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

So only one taker to explain away what born of the Spirit is? As stupid as the explanation is, at least it was an effort.

The Lord Jesus explains it here:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Peter tells us how a person is born again which is the same as being born of the Spirit:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

James tells us a person is born of God which is the same thing as being born of the Spirit:

"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:16).​
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
What I posted concerning that was not an explanation of what it means to be born of the Spirit. One would first need to actually understand what it means to be born of water, (which does not mean natural birth as it is used in John 3:5).

In "type" the word "water" can be referring to the "word," as illustrated by the following verse:

"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word"
(Eph.5:26).​

The Lord Jesus equates being "born of water and Spirit" to being "born again" and here Peter tells us how a person is born again:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you"
(1 Pet.1:23,25).​
 

daqq

Well-known member
In "type" the word "water" can be referring to the "word," as illustrated by the following verse:

"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word"
(Eph.5:26).​

The Lord Jesus equates being "born of water and Spirit" to being "born again" and here Peter tells us how a person is born again:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you"
(1 Pet.1:23,25).​

:thumb:
 

Nihilo

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Paul doesn't mention being born twice in Galatians though.
For good reason.
Speaking to Peter, Paul says, "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law" (Gal2:16KJV), and then he says, right in line with "a man is not justified by the works of the law," "if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners" (Gal2:17KJV). We ourselves also are found sinners when we compare ourselves to the law, that's what that means, that's what Paul is saying, that we ourselves also are found sinners according to the law, which means that we sin. Then, he strikes down the notion that doing good will do anything for our saving faith, "if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor" (Gal2:18KJV), which means, if your faith is weak, don't focus on morality; that's not the way to build up your faith, you will only make yourself a transgressor. Paul concludes his announcement to Peter with his own private faith, "Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Paul believed in Christ (Gal2:16KJV), and he held in his mind what He had done for him (1Co15:3KJV).

If Paul's life of faith is not his being born again, then that might be a reason that he did not mention being born twice.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
No, verse 8 is the explanation.

Let us go into more detail than that. The Lord equated being born of the Spirit with being "born again." And here Peter speaks about how a person is born again:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

How can this be said to be born of the Spirit? Because the gospel comes in the Holy Spirit:

"For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance"
(1 Thess.1:5).​

My original answer matches that perfectly. The Lord Jesus said:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life"
(Jn.6:63).​
 

Danoh

New member
John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

His reply to Nico's (Nicodemas) question "can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

He then says the same thing again, in a different way...

3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

He then adds further in His counter to Nico's failure to simply take Him at His Word...

3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Meaning, just as the breath of the wind comes and goes and you accept that without question; accept what I am saying to you without question.

Again, Nico expresses his failure to simply take Him at His Word.

3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

This time, the Lord reprimands him.

3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

The Lord then again asserts that Nico should simply take Him at His Word; that what He is asserting is true...

3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

Meaning?

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

I used an everday example - the breath of the wind - and you still don't see.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

He then reminds Nico of the very words of Moses that Nico is supposedly an expert on.

3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Hunh?

In other words, take Me at My Word - that I Am the Christ - Nico, He basically says to him .

How so?

He is speaking to him in what should be Nico's own language - the Scripture!

(remind any one here of anyone on TOL?)

Ol Nico had been satisfied with the traditions of men Israel's spiritual leadership had turned the Word of God into none effect by their tradition.

Later, the Apostle Paul will relate something similar as to how Israel fell.

Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: ) 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

As when the parents of that blind man the Lord had healed, chose to deflect, when confronted by His enemies, rather than confessing that Jesus was their Prophesied Christ....

John 9:20 His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind: 9:21 But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself. 9:22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue. 9:23 Therefore said his parents, He is of age; ask him.

The Lord was calling ol Nico out on his having failed to know Moses on this, and as a result; having failed to simply take Him, at His Word...

Deuteronomy 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Nico is dealing with this very Person Himself!

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Malachi 3:1 Behold....the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

All that on that in just that seemingly tiny exchange between them...

What a Book!
 

Nick M

Plymouth Colonist
LIFETIME MEMBER
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Your conclusion is wrong, as it does not match verse 8.

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Your conclusion is wrong, as it does not match verse 8.

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Verse eight is not referring to an individual being born of the Spirit:

"You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again. The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit" (Jn.3:7-8; NIV).​

A footnote in the NIV at verse seven says, "The Greek is plural." The Lord's words in verse seven and eight were referring to the nation of Israel being born again.

Nicodemus still did not understand, asking, "How can these things be?"

By the Lord's reply we can understand that Nicodemus should have been aware of some truth in the OT Scriptures which spoke of a regeneration by the Spirit: "Art thou a teacher of Israel, and knoweth not these things?" (v.10).

Nicodemus should have been aware of the prophecy which speaks of the prophecy of the wind and the Spirit and national Israel:

"Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army....And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD"
(Zech.37:9-10,14).​

The Lord Jesus was employing this "type" which speaks of the nation of Israel being born again by the Spirit in order to illustrate an individual being born again by the Spirit.

My previous answer was in regard to individuals which your answer is in regard to the nation of israel.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Verse eight is not referring to an individual being born of the Spirit:

"You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again. The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit" (Jn.3:7-8; NIV).​

A footnote in the NIV at verse seven says, "The Greek is plural." The Lord's words in verse seven and eight were referring to the nation of Israel being born again.

Nicodemus still did not understand, asking, "How can these things be?"

By the Lord's reply we can understand that Nicodemus should have been aware of some truth in the OT Scriptures which spoke of a regeneration by the Spirit: "Art thou a teacher of Israel, and knoweth not these things?" (v.10).

Nicodemus should have been aware of the prophecy which speaks of the prophecy of the wind and the Spirit and national Israel:

"Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army....And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD"
(Zech.37:9-10,14).​

The Lord Jesus was employing this "type" which speaks of the nation of Israel being born again by the Spirit in order to illustrate an individual being born again by the Spirit.

My previous answer was in regard to individuals which your answer is in regard to the nation of israel.

Jerry,

You ought to stick with your day job, for a biblical exegete, you are not.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Paul was not born of the Spirit, as told in John 3. That is why he did not mention or say he was.

If you deny the Holy Spirit regenerated Paul to new spiritual life, who gifted Paul with faith to believe?
 

Danoh

New member
If you deny the Holy Spirit regenerated Paul to new spiritual life, who gifted Paul with faith to believe?

Consider the following, or not :)

All faith is, is basically a decision to believe a thing.

Do you not decide to believe that the store you are headed for will be there when you get there?

That the brand of water you are going to buy will be in stock?

That you would be better off to "cross with the light, and be polite"?

That you have a right to post on a forum, unless otherwise probited by its' owner?

It really boils down to that - deciding to believe a thing is, or is not.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Consider the following, or not :)

All faith is, is basically a decision to believe a thing.

Do you not decide to believe that the store you are headed for will be there when you get there?

That the brand of water you are going to buy will be in stock?

That you would be better off to "cross with the light, and be polite"?

That you have a right to post on a forum, unless otherwise probited by its' owner?

It really boils down to that - deciding to believe a thing is, or is not.

All well and good, but the fact is that Nang simply missed Nick's point to begin with. Had she read the thread from the beginning, she'd know how far off base she is.
 

Danoh

New member
All well and good, but the fact is that Nang simply missed Nick's point to begin with. Had she read the thread from the beginning, she'd know how far off base she is.

One never knows what piece of the puzzle depicted in what manner finally releases one log jam or another.

Once, while witnessing to an atheist, it was a carnal example (natural man) that finally broke through.

One never knows.

Plus it's a much more mentally beneficial exercise of one's faculties than simply resorting to the same old same old...
 

Nihilo

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Paul was not born of the Spirit, as told in John 3. That is why he did not mention or say he was.
I've got some questions swirling around in my mind. In 1st Peter 1:23 (KJV) which Jerry already quoted, was Peter saying to his audience that they should live as if they are "born again," or was he saying that they are already "born again?" Also, is "born again" (Jn3:3KJV ; 1Pt1:23KJV) the same as "born of water and of the Spirit" (Jn3:5KJV) and "born of the Spirit" (Jn3:8KJV)? Are they all the same thing? :)
 

intojoy

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I'll admit, Jerry, that I don't know the answers here. I always thought it was because some are putting their faith in the law through their own efforts. What exactly do you mean by "under the law"? To me it sounds like being "under the schoolmaster", under it's control somehow.... as if something was "required", else how can one be "under" it?

Finally


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intojoy

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're saying they are not UNDER the law, but they still maintain the form as a means of tradition. They keep the ceremonies to maintain their heritage or something?

Yes wrong.


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intojoy

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The original reason why the Jews were placed "under the law" (the Mosaic Covenant) was for this reason:

"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel"
(Ex.19:5-6).​

The Mosaic Covenant was never a means of salvation because if one was going to be saved by keeping the law then they must keep it perfectly (Jas.2:10). The law was given so that the Jews would have the knowledge of things which were sinful (the Ten Commandments). But no Jews were justified in the eyes of God by the works of the law (Ro.3:20).

You mean 613 commandments not just 10.


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