The Preterists and Matthew 24:34

[genuineoriginal]

the correct translation of the following passage is as follows:

"So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This family shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Mt.24:33-34).​

Here are all the verses in Matthew that speak of "this generation":

Matthew 12:41 41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.​

Matthew 12:42 42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.​

Matthew 12:45 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.​

Matthew 23:36 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.​

Matthew 24:34 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.​

This should make it clear which generation Jesus was speaking about.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Here are all the verses in Matthew that speak of "this generation":

That proves nothing. It is obvious that "generation" is not the correct translation because no first century generation saw a world wide judgment come upon men:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-36).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jesus was telling the Pharisees that the kingdom of God is within us. At the time he told them that, the King was not residing there.

When Jesus said " the kingdom is not", again it was because God was not yet residing in us.

The Lord Jesus was addressing the Pharisees so if your ideas are right the Lord Jesus told them that the kingdom was within them:

"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within in you" (Lk.17:20-21).​

Do you really believe that the kingdom of God was within the Pharisees?

 

[genuineoriginal]

That proves nothing. It is obvious that "generation" is not the correct translation because no first century generation saw a world wide judgment come upon men:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-36).​

Why are you misinterpreting gē (γῆ)?
The context of the passage shows it refers to judgment in the land of Israel, not a world wide judgement?

I have highlighted the same Greek word in another verse of the same passage:

Luke 21:21-24 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.​

 

[genuineoriginal]

The Lord Jesus was addressing the Pharisees so if your ideas are right the Lord Jesus told them that the kingdom was within them:

"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within in you" (Lk.17:20-21).​

Do you really believe that the kingdom of God was within the Pharisees?

Jesus said the kingdom was in the midst [entos (ἐντός)] of the Pharisees, which just happens to be where He was standing when He said it.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jesus said the kingdom was in the midst [entos (ἐντός)] of the Pharisees, which just happens to be where He was standing when He said it.

That is right. Since the King was standing in their presence then in a figurative sense the kingdom was in their midst.

However, the Lord Jesus said that the kingdom of heaven will not be near until He returns to the earth:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Why are you misinterpreting gē (γῆ)?
The context of the passage shows it refers to judgment in the land of Israel, not a world wide judgement?

It is only when the "context" demands it when ge is referring to the land of Israel. But at Luke 21 the context demand a much greater area than just Israel:

"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth (oikoumene)" (Lk.21:25-27).​

In the same discourse the Lord Jesus used the same word at another place:

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world (oikoumene) for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Mt.24:14).​

With this in mind and Luke 21:25 providing the context in regard to the following words we can know that "generation" is not the correct translation:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-35).​

There was never a world wide judgment in the first century or anytime since. Therefore, the first century generation did not see a world wide judgment. So we can know with absolute certainity that "generation" is not the correct translation at Luke 21:32.

 

[genuineoriginal]

That is right. Since the King was standing in their presence then in a figurative sense the kingdom was in their midst.

However, the Lord Jesus said that the kingdom of heaven will not be near until He returns to the earth:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).​

Which, of course, shows that the physical kingdom will be on earth.

 

[genuineoriginal]

It is only when the "context" demands it when ge is referring to the land of Israel. But at Luke 21 the context demand a much greater area than just Israel

No, it doesn't.
You only want it to in order to justify your false belief that Jesus was not talking about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE.

In the same discourse the Lord Jesus used the same word at another place:

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world (oikoumene) for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Mt.24:14).​

The gospel was preached in all the Roman Empire before 70 CE.
Just look at the writings of Paul.
You are proving that the prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem and the coming of the time of the Gentiles happened in 70 CE.

With this in mind and Luke 21:25 providing the context in regard to the following words we can know that "generation" is not the correct translation:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-35).​

The context proves that "this generation" was referring to the generation alive at the time of Jesus' preaching.

There was never a world wide judgment in the first century

Since Jesus never prophesied that the judgment on the land of Israel would be a world wide judgment, it appears that you are looking for the wrong thing.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No, it doesn't.
You only want it to in order to justify your false belief that Jesus was not talking about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE.

The Lord's words were in answer as to what will happen at the end of the age:

Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt. 24:3).​

Earlier the Lord Jesus spoke the parable of the "tares of the field" where He described what would occur at the "end of the age":

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt. 13:37-43).​

Here we can see that the Lord Jesus speaks of a harvest that will happen at the "end of the age", the "end of this age." He also makes it clear that the harvest will take place in the field, and He says that the "field is the world."

And that proves that "generation" is not the correct translation:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-35).​

The last verse is speaking about the Lord's words in Matthew 13 which speak of a world-wide harvest and no first century generation of men saw such a thing.

Therefore, "generation" is not the correct translation.

 

[Zeke]

"This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

The Temple was destroyed within a generation, almost, if not, exactly.

Preterism doesn't work because the majority report from the historical record indicate's plainly that the Church did not interpret the event's of A.D. 70 in the way in which Preterist's explain. Its intractable. Its a fatal flaw that require's a story about a cover-up that rival's that of the X-File's Special Agent Fox Mulder. That secretly, Jesus told the Church to hush about His 2nd Coming already happening, and here we are today set to raise the curtain on this above-top Church secret? Are we supposed to tell the world that He already came? How can we do that when people see that we all still bleed? The 2nd Coming is the end of death.


Daniel

The focus is on the wrong temple, the physical body of Adam is the temple that gets destroyed, seeing it is the tomb of death/hell for the Divine seed/soul in a state of ignorance/amnesia, Jonah in the whale represents this sign (As does the prodigal) or symbol for those waking up in each generation, faced with its physical mortality and cry's out to be delivered/ born again from this body of death etc....Galatians 4:24-26, allegorical truth perverted into literal history, which is why the Vatican has a green pine cone that represents a closed Penial gland of the laymen who have bought the literal death sentence of the letter 2Cor 3:6. That is the only divide in scripture, the rest are rabbit trails back to the starting line of literal letter induced ignorance.

 

[Aaron the Tall]

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).​

Jerry, sorry about the delay. I should be able to answer some of your questions soon. I appreciate the dialogue.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The Lord's words were in answer as to what will happen at the end of the age:

Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt. 24:3).​

Why are you ignoring the relevant parts?

Matthew 24:1-3a 1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?​

What things were the disciples asking about?
The very thing that Jesus had just got done mentioning: The destruction of the Temple.

Matthew 24:34 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.​

The generation did not pass until after the temple was destroyed.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Why are you ignoring the relevant parts?

It is you who is ignoring the revelant parts when you just flat out what I said about the events which would happen at "the end of the age":

The Lord's words were in answer as to what will happen at the end of the age:

Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt. 24:3).​

Earlier the Lord Jesus spoke the parable of the "tares of the field" where He described what would occur at the "end of the age":

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt. 13:37-43).​

Here we can see that the Lord Jesus speaks of a harvest that will happen at the "end of the age", the "end of this age." He also makes it clear that the harvest will take place in the field, and He says that the "field is the world."

And that proves that "generation" is not the correct translation:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-35).​

The last verse is speaking about the Lord's words in Matthew 13 which speak of a world-wide harvest and no first century generation of men saw such a thing.

Therefore, "generation" is not the correct translation.

What things were the disciples asking about?
The very thing that Jesus had just got done mentioning: The destruction of the Temple.

The generation did not pass until after the temple was destroyed.

By the words of the Prophet Haggai we can see what might be described as a "principle of continuity" in the history of the temple. The temple that stood at the time of the Lord could be leveled to the ground and then be rebuilt and still be considered the same temple. At the time of the rebuilding of the temple after it had been destroyed, Haggi says:

"Who is left among you that saw this house in its former glory?" (Hag.2:3).

The Lord of hosts says, "The latter splendor of this house shall be greater than the former"(v.9).

So a rebuilt temple can be considered a continuation of the two preceding temples according to the words of the Lord. Therefore any future temple will not have to be rebuilt with the same stones as was the temple standing when the Lord Jesus walked the earth in order to be considered the same temple.

Therefore, the words of the Lord at Matthew 24:2 were in reference to a temple that will stand after being rebuilt. Not the temple then standing.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, sorry about the delay. I should be able to answer some of your questions soon. I appreciate the dialogue.

No problem. I too enjoy the dialogue because you are able to always be civil, unlike many others who cannot control their emotions.

 

[Aaron the Tall]

Instead of discussing the last thing I said let us start with the first part because it lays the foundation of the rest. Let us start with my remarks here:

The Lord Jesus' kingdom will be on the earth. That is why He had His disciples pray in the following way:

"And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth"​

Is there something that necessitates Jesus being physically here for there to be a Kingdom? You earlier stated your belief that the Kingdom was present in Jesus' day because the King was standing there.

My response to that is:

1.) I thought you didn't believe Jesus was the King of the Kingdom at that time, so how does your response that the presence of the King = the presence of the Kingdom at that time make sense to you?

2.) You believe the Father is currently the ruler of a general world-wide Kingdom in which we all live. If you believe a Kingdom on earth can only exist if the King is physically present, how do you make sense of the fact that the Father is King over the earth when He doesn't physically reside here?

3.) Do you believe that Jesus is here on earth right now, at least in the same way that the Father is present on earth right now?

4.) If you agree with that, then what is the problem with believing Jesus is currently King of the Kingdom even though He is not physically here on earth?

Especially concerning Colossians 1:13, which I have yet to hear a response from you on: "He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,"

It is obvious that the Father's will has never been done on the earth as it is in heaven. Therefore, we can know that the Lord Jesus has not yet returned to the earth:

So, you believe Jesus was instructing his disciples to pray for something that couldn't happen? Even though the rest of the prayer has to do with the provisions and struggles of day to day life, this part about the Kingdom was strictly about a future time they would never see? I think this betrays the purpose of Jesus instructing them to pray that way.

Do you think the disciples (or us) can pray the Kingdom here?

Either way, I think your statement that the Father's will has never been done on earth is strongly misguided. If someone get's saved or healed, has the Father's will been done? Why must it be an all or nothing proposition. Are you suggesting that if not every aspect of the Father's will is being accomplished, then the Kingdom is not here on earth?? Again, I point you to the rebellion of nations at the end of the millenial reign. Do you think the Father's will is being done when all these people reject Christ as King? If not, what happens to the Kingdom during this time of rebellion?

Paul said the Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace, and joy. When we pursue these things, we are pursuing the Kingdom. When Jesus told his disciples to "Seek first the Kingdom" do you maintain that Jesus was talking about seeking his future reign on the earth? Or was Jesus giving them a daily instruction about seeking the rule and presence of God in their life?

When Jesus told his disciples to pray for the Father's Kingdom to come, he is telling them to pray that the Father's will and purpose would be accomplished on earth here and now just as it always is in heaven.

 

[Right Divider]

<cut>
Especially concerning Colossians 1:13, which I have yet to hear a response from you on: "He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,"
<cut>

Paul is simply using the term "kingdom" here in a different sense that of the earthly kingdom to come.

Since Paul tells US (the body of Christ) that WE are "seated in heavenly places" (Eph 2:6), it's clear that this reference to 'kingdom' refers to the heavenly aspect of the kingdom that will come to earth some day.

 

[Aaron the Tall]

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).​

Could you please please give me your post number where you addressed Matthew 13?

Thanks!

In brief summary...

You think the harvest of Matthew 13 hasn't happened yet because it is a "worldwide" harvest.

I believe the Matthew 13 harvest is speaking of removing the wicked weed "pretenders" from God's Kingdom. At the same time, the true seed are preserved. This judgement was primarily focused on the unbelieving Jews to whom Jesus said the Kingdom would be taken from.

Even though the field was the world, that doesn't mean every corner of the globe had to experience this weeding out for it to be fulfilled. It just meant it applied to all the pretender weeds living in the world, whether in Jerusalem or outside Jerusalem.

As for the harvest of the true seed - this also occurred in the "world". Jesus' followers were reaping in souls from many different nations. The setting of the harvest is the "world" but that doesn't mean that every inch of the globe has to experience harvesting for this to occur.

I am not quite sure what you believe the fulfillment of Matthew 13 will look like. Do you think the harvest here is the saving of souls? Or the rapture of the church? Or what?

And what is the judgment on the weeds?

You also seemed to acknowledge that the harvest of Matthew 21 was in respect to Jesus' first coming. What do you believe that harvest was about if it is a different harvest than Matthew 13?

Lastly, I just can't get behind your interpretation of I Cor 10:11 and Hebrews 9:26 where Paul says the "end of the age" had come upon them, and that Jesus came "at the end of the age."
Paul is teaching them theological principles here. You might say he was "mistaken" but Paul is not offering speculation, he believes he is telling his audience truthful statements - so you must conclude that Paul was either lying or teaching false doctrine - and I can't go there.

 

[Aaron the Tall]

Paul is simply using the term "kingdom" here in a different sense that of the earthly kingdom to come.

Since Paul tells US (the body of Christ) that WE are "seated in heavenly places" (Eph 2:6), it's clear that this reference to 'kingdom' refers to the heavenly aspect of the kingdom that will come to earth some day.

What might that different sense be? In what sense do we currently belong to Christ's Kingdom if Christ's Kingdom does not yet exist?

Yes, we are spiritually seated with Christ right now.

Here is where I disagree. You seem to think that these things won't really be reality til they show up here on earth. My question is: where is the greater reality? In Heaven or on Earth?

 

[genuineoriginal]

It is you who is ignoring the revelant parts when you just flat out what I said about the events which would happen at "the end of the age":

The Lord's words were in answer as to what will happen at the end of the age:

Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt. 24:3).​

Earlier the Lord Jesus spoke the parable of the "tares of the field" where He described what would occur at the "end of the age":

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt. 13:37-43).​

Here we can see that the Lord Jesus speaks of a harvest that will happen at the "end of the age", the "end of this age." He also makes it clear that the harvest will take place in the field, and He says that the "field is the world."

The prophecy in Matthew 13 was given at a time when those that had ears to hear could have changed the time of the restoration of the kingdom through a national repentance.

When the prophecy in Matthew 24 was given, the leaders of the nation (Pharisees, Sadducees, scribes, chief priests, and elders) had made it clear that they were opposed to any national repentance.
Jesus condemned them for closing up the kingdom (Matthew 23) and then gave the prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem (Matthew 24).

You, are confused because you were taught that the "end of the age" prophecies in Matthew were not based on the conditional prophecies found throughout the Old Testament (Leviticus 26, Deuteronomy 32, Jeremiah 25, Daniel 9) that fortell of the exile of the children of Israel from the land of promise if they refuse to keep the commandments.

If the leaders of the nation of Israel had led a national repentance during the time of Jesus, then the kingdom would have been restored to Israel at that time and the harvest from Matthew 13 would have taken place.

Since they refused to lead a national repentance, the desolation of the land of Israel was prophesied.

Matthew 23:37-39 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.​