ECT The Pregnant Woman and the Dragon

Sheila B

Sheila B

Member
oatmeal said:
In order for someone to draw a conclusion, we need to read it.

Revelation 12:1-17 KJV

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The basics of the record parallel the record of the redeemer Jesus Christ and his mother, Mary.

The the child was born, Satan wanted him dead, they escaped.

Mary was persecuted as foretold by Simon the elderly man in the temple.

However, there is a likewise, figurative language there that presently would be difficult to pinpoint as to its meaning.

Third of the stars is the third of the angels that followed Lucifer, Satan, the Devil, the dragon, that old serpent, it is a past event

The book of Revelation being a vision that John participated in, like some OT books, the visions are difficult to ascertain as to their precise meaning.

Which is God's decision as to these matters.

We have plenty to do today. Matthew 6:34
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And she brought forth a man child...
Interesting, since the Church is a she/her as the Bride and Christ the Bridegroom.
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

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Sheila B said:
And she brought forth a man child...
Interesting, since the Church is a she/her as the Bride and Christ the Bridegroom.
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Indeed, nothing else fits the "woman" as being the visible church who who delivers those of the invisible Church, Body of Christ, to be caught away to meet Jesus in the air, to return with Him in that day when He sets His feet on Mt Zion..

BTW and FWIW, Rev 12 also speaks of a "remnant of her seed "who are left behind. Someone with courage should take the time to offer and opinion as who they believe that "remnant" is since they are so sure of everything else the have to say with nothing of substance to back it up.
 
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HisServant said:
Countless? Its no surprise that they all say this after Darby taught his heresy...

Prior to Darby, no one used the excuse you are using.
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Darby did no differently than what you presently are doing. Wise up. Show where Darby was in error, if you think so?
 
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Sheila B

Sheila B

Member
oatmeal said:
Well, you have a point?
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I am still pondering the dream of Joseph and his family also.

Since mother, father, and brothers bowed down to Joseph, it was because he was a type of savior being the head man of pharaoh and saving the people from annihilation, by doling out bread.

This picture of a Messiah, applied to the woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet... would indicate the woman to be Mary and Jesus the man child as an alternate scenario. This time, shepherds (pastors of the flock) and wise men from the east (all nations- fulfilling promise to Abraham) are bowing before the male child.

I am thinking there are layered meanings, not just one. And it seems to me parts and pieces fit one and then another interpretation, weaving the OT and the NT salvation story into one history of God's plan.
 
Sheila B

Sheila B

Member
Cross Reference said:
BTW and FWIW, Rev 12 also speaks of a "remnant of her seed "who are left behind.
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The seed of the woman reminds us of Gen 3:15 where another woman will come to undo, if you will, the action of Eve in the garden. The seed to come will crush the head of that dragon waiting to devour the child.

But, all in due time. Two comings are foretold and one has happened, and the other offspring of the woman remain to do battle until Messiah comes riding that great white horse with the armies of heaven.
 
Sheila B

Sheila B

Member
HisServant said:
A 1st century Jewish Christian would view the symbolism as obvious though. So you have to do your due diligence and study non-biblical text from the 1st century to look for like symbolism to determine its meaning.
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excellent suggestion! Also ancient Jewish sources on Leviathan, etc. would help answer some questions perhaps.
 
steko

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Sheila B said:
And she brought forth a man child...
Interesting, since the Church is a she/her as the Bride and Christ the Bridegroom.
Click to expand...

The Church originates in and follows from Christ, not vice-versa, therefore since the woman produces the manchild(Christ Jesus), the woman is genealogical Israel.

Cross Reference said:
Indeed, nothing else fits the "woman" as being the visible church who who delivers those of the invisible Church, Body of Christ, to be caught away to meet Jesus in the air, to return with Him in that day when He sets His feet on Mt Zion..

BTW and FWIW, Rev 12 also speaks of a "remnant of her seed "who are left behind. Someone with courage should take the time to offer and opinion as who they believe that "remnant" is since they are so sure of everything else the have to say with nothing of substance to back it up.
Click to expand...

The remnant of her seed is the remnant of genealogical Israel and is supported substantially by the whole Bible.
 
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steko said:
The Church originates in and follows from Christ, not vice-versa, therefore since the woman produces the manchild(Christ Jesus), the woman is genealogical Israel.



The remnant of her seed is the remnant of genealogical Israel and is supported substantially by the whole Bible.
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Israel doesn't fit the mold. Stop reading your commentaries.
 
steko

steko

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Sheila B said:
I am still pondering the dream of Joseph and his family also.

Since mother, father, and brothers bowed down to Joseph, it was because he was a type of savior being the head man of pharaoh and saving the people from annihilation, by doling out bread.

This picture of a Messiah, applied to the woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet... would indicate the woman to be Mary and Jesus the man child as an alternate scenario. This time, shepherds (pastors of the flock) and wise men from the east (all nations- fulfilling promise to Abraham) are bowing before the male child.

I am thinking there are layered meanings, not just one. And it seems to me parts and pieces fit one and then another interpretation, weaving the OT and the NT salvation story into one history of God's plan.
Click to expand...

Good track, however, 'the remnant of her seed' would not have come from Mary but from genealogical Israel.



Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Mar 12:6 Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.
Mar 12:7 But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.
Mar 12:8 And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard. (Isa 5:7)

Gen 37:3 Now Israel loved Joseph more than all his children, because he was the son of his old age: and he made him a coat of many colours.
Gen 37:4 And when his brethren saw that their father loved him more than all his brethren, they hated him, and could not speak peaceably unto him.



Gen 37:18 And when they saw him afar off, even before he came near unto them, they conspired against him to slay him.

Gen 45:1 Then Joseph could not refrain himself before all them that stood by him; and he cried, Cause every man to go out from me. And there stood no man with him, while Joseph made himself known unto his brethren.


Gen 45:7 And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
 
V

Vincent Lerins

New member
The manchild is Christ. He was born of his mother, the woman, the blessed virgin mary ( as she was called by Gabriel and as she herself prophesied all generations would call her blessed ).

Both in writing and in art over history you see this imagery used to denote Mary, her crown of stars is 12, she stands on the earth with the crescent moon under her feet often, with the radiance of the sun from around her.

The passage may be understood in more than one sense hence other views are also allowed. In much the same way that the story of Hagar and Sarah may be taken in a literal and a allegorical sense. So its not wrong to see it signifying other things as well.
 
Tambora

Tambora

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steko said:
Israel is the only thing that fits the mold.
I read my Bible.
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Tambora

Tambora

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steko said:
The Church originates in and follows from Christ, not vice-versa, therefore since the woman produces the manchild(Christ Jesus), the woman is genealogical Israel.



The remnant of her seed is the remnant of genealogical Israel and is supported substantially by the whole Bible.
Click to expand...
Yep.
 
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