ECT The Pregnant Woman and the Dragon

[HisServant]

On behalf of them, it crossed mine so, don't twist my words.

First of all, when wouldn't have even been exposed to Revelation (you know.. the timing and logistics of the entire thing... John being in prison exile and all).

Honestly, they could have cared less about it.

 

[Cross Reference]

I don't think the thought of them 'missing out' on something would have even crossed their minds.

Nothing in Revelation shines any new light on what they would have already known about salvation. Anyhow, I, along with most historical scholars believe that Revelation is specifically about the end of Judaism and the destruction of the temple in AD70. Depending on when you think the book was written (pre or post AD70) the above is consistent with Judaic prophesy or retrospective writings.

So you have to ask yourself whether it is really relevant today when you approach it using your context.

At the end of the day, Revelation itself will not lead anyone to salvation and it doesn't clearly describe what salvation is.

BUT, it does appeal to people who are inclined to 'sensationalism'.. i.e. people that read the national inquirer or subscribers to many 17th and 18th century new Christian 'cults'... because sensationalism arose during a point of enlightenment where people were just getting a taste of being educated yet did not understand just how difficult the road actually was, so they took the easy and lazy road.

You are short on perspective and long on irreconcilable dogma. Rev,6,12,13,17 and18 all obviously for today unless you can "honestly" explain away 2000 yrs of history. But, you go for it. I will try not to laugh.

 

[HisServant]

You are short on perspective and long on irreconcilable dogma. Rev,6,12,13,17 and18 all obviously for today unless you can "honestly" explain away 2000 yrs of history. But, you go for it. I will try not to laugh.

You would have to argue with John on that one and not me.

Do you honestly think that when John said 'soon take place' he had 2000 years in mind?

The fact is that you chose to ignore that and then just use that license to spin the rest of the book into whatever fantasy you so desire.

That is what John said (while inspired by the Holy Spirit)... so you must confine your interpretation within a generation or two of John's death.

And face it, no one believed what you do about Revelation until Darby came along....

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

However, everyone on this forum would probably say the same thing to one degree or another with most as yourself not being able to explain why, aside from being saved from damnation.

I don't see it this way at all. God first loved us, draws us to Him by His Spirit, then we respond in faith, or not. God draws all mankind by His Spirit, and through the preaching of the gospel. So, we have His fundamental love and salvation work, that He wishes to save us, and our response to this, don't have any questions as to the love of God and His work, as explained in the simple gospel, with a surety know why. (But neither do I see many issues people make complexities of that, to my mind, don't exist in the first place, in light of Bible teachings that are clear. I can't say my experience is the confusion I see being expressed, over many doctrines.) As to some other points, I have many thoughts, but only wish discussing some more complex matters in the context of conversations aimed at these issues, with people there's some meeting of the minds with. I don't like all of the "debating" going on, don't like that some trample sound doctrine for the sake of trolling. I most prefer posting scripture that answers the issues, as the word of God speaks best and with finality, people to take it or leave it, understand or not. To be blunt, there's much error and evil extant in forums, tares in the wheat.

 

[Cross Reference]

You would have to argue with John on that one and not me.Do you honestly think that when John said 'soon take place' he had 2000 years in mind?

No. You are the one with the strong opinion here, based on commentaries, not me. Does, what John thought, make any difference?? I seriously doubt he understood anything presented him. His only job was to write down what he saw__ understanding not required.

The fact is that you chose to ignore that and then just use that license to spin the rest of the book into whatever fantasy you so desire.

Not in the least, is that what I did.

That is what John said (while inspired by the Holy Spirit)... so you must confine your interpretation within a generation or two of John's death.

WHY??

And face it, no one believed what you do about Revelation until Darby came along....

Scrap Darby! I understood it better than you before I ever heard of Darby.

 

[Cross Reference]

I don't see it this way at all. God first loved us, draws us to Him by His Spirit, then we respond in faith, or not. God draws all mankind by His Spirit, and through the preaching of the gospel. So, we have His fundamental love and salvation work, that He wishes to save us, and our response to this, don't have any questions as to the love of God and His work, as explained in the simple gospel, with a surety know why. (But neither do I see many issues people make complexities of that, to my mind, don't exist in the first place, in light of Bible teachings that are clear. I can't say my experience is the confusion I see being expressed, over many doctrines.)

Forget the doctrines when you discuss with me. I know God saves folk unto something in Himself that doctrines don't speak of. Their only message is "Receive Jesus into your heart or you are going to hell".

Ever wonder about those who have faith God as redeemer and have never heard the Name of Jesus and die in that state?

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

Ever wonder about those who have faith God as redeemer and have never heard the Name of Jesus and die in that state?

Romans 2

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another,)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

[Cross Reference]

Romans 2

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another,)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Yes. So what would you say the purpose of a missionary is?

 

[HisServant]

No. You are the one with the strong opinion here, based on commentaries, not me. Does, what John thought, make any difference?? I seriously doubt he understood anything presented him. His only job was to write down what he saw__ understanding not required.



Not in the least, is that what I did.


WHY??



Scrap Darby! I understood it better than you before I ever heard of Darby.

So your interpretations are based on the assumption that the Holy Spirit inspired John to write down a lie? Correct?

Soon means soon... just as Jesus said it would all come to pass while people in his audience where still alive.

'soon' and 'this generation' are consistent... what support do you have that Jesus and John lied?


What is so hard to understand about that?

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

Yes. So what what you say the purpose of a missionary is?

Missionaries spread the gospel to the world, establish congregations. But, please, I don't like doing the "20 questions" thing, find a lot of people manipulating others this way, to try and trap them into some dispute. I prefer responding to an explanation of what another person believes and clearly seeing the "why" of a question. For instance, this question makes no sense, as it's obvious what missionaries do, and pretty clear you're driving at something else you're not revealing. Again, I prefer to take a pass on this means of communication.

 

[Cross Reference]

So your interpretations are based on the assumption that the Holy Spirit inspired John to write down a lie? Correct?

Lie???? Why do you say that???? He wrote what he was presented. THAT IS WHAT I SAID!!!!!

Soon means soon... just as Jesus said it would all come to pass while people in his audience where still alive.

'soon' and 'this generation' are consistent... what support do you have that Jesus and John lied?


What is so hard to understand about that?

Why do you find it so hard to handle the words of others who do not agree with yu?????? You are showing yourself to be the liar in this ___not me!

 

[HisServant]

Lie???? Why do you say that???? He wrote what he was presented. THAT IS WHAT I SAID!!!!!



Why do you find it so hard to handle the words of others who do not agree with yu?????? You are showing yourself to be the liar in this ___not me!

So you think the Holy Spirit inspired him to write 'soon' even though it might be 3000 years in the future?

If you do, then you have to admit that it was a deception... a lie.

Did not Jesus say that these things would come to pass in front of people he was speaking to?

Are any of these people still alive (of course not).

All I am doing is pointing you to reality.... all that time and effort you have spent on this was in vain!

And like I said, in order to believe what you do, you have to believe that the Holy Spirit and Jesus spoke in deception.

 

[Cross Reference]

So you think the Holy Spirit inspired him to write 'soon' even though it might be 3000 years in the future?

If you do, then you have to admit that it was a deception... a lie.

Did not Jesus say that these things would come to pass in front of people he was speaking to?

Are any of these people still alive (of course not).

All I am doing is pointing you to reality.... all that time and effort you have spent on this was in vain!

And like I said, in order to believe what you do, you have to believe that the Holy Spirit and Jesus spoke in deception.

Not in the least. You have just run of ideas to trying to keep your 'corrupted dogma ' intact. I admit no such thing as you say I must.

You need help buddy boy.

 

[HisServant]

Not in the least. You have just run of ideas to trying to keep your 'corrupted dogma ' intact. I admit no such thing as you say I must.

You need help buddy boy.

Have I promoted any dogma?... Nope.

If you start omitting words in scripture because you do not like them, where do you draw the line and stop?

What makes you believe that John really mean't woman or dragon?... aren't those same words subject to the same whim of discounting them?

But seriously, both Jesus and John spoke pretty concretely on when the prophesies they talked about were to come to pass! That time has elapsed and it is up to us to study the past to see how they were fulfilled for the glory of God!

If we do not take the bible to say what it means then why bother at all?

The onus is on you to prove that the Holy Spirit did not mean to have John write 'soon to pass'.. and that Jesus did not actually say that some of his audience would still be alive when his prophesies came to pass.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

So you think the Holy Spirit inspired him to write 'soon' even though it might be 3000 years in the future?

In Revelation 1:1, the Greek "Tachos" does not mean soon, in terms of something that will happen tomorrow. The KJV "shortly" is more apt, and the primary definition of the word involves quickness and speed. In other words, when the apocalypse comes about, it will be sudden, things will happen quickly, in fact, the antichrist empire something quite less than 7 years duration. Or you could say the end times events will happen in rapid succession.

You may want to compare these verses, for the concept of things happening quickly when they begin:

Revelation 3

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. [tribulation saints will have to very much hold fast, during a time of terrors and rapid upheaval]

Revelation 11

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Revelation 22

7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. [who is most the audience of this statement, than those who'll live these times and need to keep the sayings of the book, avoid the mark of the beast, etc.]

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

 

[Cross Reference]

Have I promoted any dogma?... Nope.

If you start omitting words in scripture because you do not like them, where do you draw the line and stop?

What makes you believe that John really mean't woman or dragon?... aren't those same words subject to the same whim of discounting them?

But seriously, both Jesus and John spoke pretty concretely on when the prophesies they talked about were to come to pass! That time has elapsed and it is up to us to study the past to see how they were fulfilled for the glory of God!

If we do not take the bible to say what it means then why bother at all?

The onus is on you to prove that the Holy Spirit did not mean to have John write 'soon to pass'.. and that Jesus did not actually say that some of his audience would still be alive when his prophesies came to pass.

I believe you and yours are incorrigible having taken into yourself what does not make sense for understanding to even begin to make its journey into your brain. . Sorry, no more from me. I don't have patience for you in your present state.

 

[HisServant]

I believe you and yours are incorrigible having taken into yourself what does not make sense for understanding to even begin to make its journey into your brain. . Sorry, no more from me. I don't have patience for you in your present state.

Nope.. I believe what it says... why don't you?

 

[HisServant]

I believe you and yours are incorrigible having taken into yourself what does not make sense for understanding to even begin to make its journey into your brain. . Sorry, no more from me. I don't have patience for you in your present state.

I believe what was written... why don't you?

 

[HisServant]

In Revelation 1:1, the Greek "Tachos" does not mean soon, in terms of something that will happen tomorrow. The KJV "shortly" is more apt, and the primary definition of the word involves quickness and speed. In other words, when the apocalypse comes about, it will be sudden, things will happen quickly, in fact, the antichrist empire something quite less than 7 years duration. Or you could say the end times events will happen in rapid succession.

You may want to compare these verses, for the concept of things happening quickly when they begin:

Revelation 3

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. [tribulation saints will have to very much hold fast, during a time of terrors and rapid upheaval]

Revelation 11

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Revelation 22

7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. [who is most the audience of this statement, than those who'll live these times and need to keep the sayings of the book, avoid the mark of the beast, etc.]

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

I've heard this line of reasoning before... it doesn't hold water.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

I've heard this line of reasoning before... it doesn't hold water.

Glad to hear you've corrected countless real theologians down the ages.