beloved57
Well-known member
God is not the Saviour of a man who is not saved.
The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
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God is not the Saviour of a man who is not saved.
ThePresbyteers
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ThePresbyteers
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In RO 9, Paul is simply making the distinction between unbelieving
Sons of Israel and a believing remnant of the Sons of Israel. They are still all bloodline Israel. Those of bloodline Israel who have believed GOD are HIS people and those of the Gentiles who believe GOD become HIS people also. But they are still called from Israel and from non-Israel.
Rom 9:24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
Rom 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;
Paul maintains the distinction between those who are Gentiles and and those who are of Israel, who are always the bloodline Sons of Israel. Nowhere does Paul call Gentiles Israel or Israel Gentiles, nor do the Gentiles(nations-Grk.ethnos-Heb.goyim) ever become Israel. The Gentiles become part of 'the household of faith' by being added to the Church, but the Church is not Israel. The distinction is never blurred. "We both" implies two distinct parties.
Eph 2:18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
Rom 9:31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
When one comes to be disillusioned from the spell of 'Replacement Theology'(meaning the Jew/Gentile church replaces National Israel) then the Scriptures become much more easily understood. Things fall into their proper place, throughout the whole Bible.
I admonish you to reconsider your approach to scripture.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God
2Co 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself
kosmos-the world and its' inhabitants
Jesus is the potential Saviour of all people.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Jesus is not a "potential" anything!
The gospel is not the good news of a possiblity provided by God.
The gospel is the reality, certainty, and surety that Jesus Christ died and resurrected in the flesh to reconcile His people with God.
God made a covenant to do this, performed the covenant, and guarantees the results.
Nang
Nang
TOL Subscriber
So basically God creates people predestined to be the elect and others fitted for destruction in order to display His justice to the elect? Am I getting the basic gist of this correct?
lain:
This is a sarcastic and unbelieving interpretation of God's word. It reeks of rebellion against sovereign God. It exhibits no faith in the wisdom and goodness of God.
You are in spiritual trouble, Arthur . . .
Nang
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
What exactly was wrong with it from a basic perspective? That is the gist of what you're saying isn't it?
Lets face it, according to you anyone who isn't part of the elect is in 'spiritual trouble' and no-one gets any say in that anyway...
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Your "basic perspective" is what I described. Unbelieving, sarcastic, and rebellious.
Read Romans 9:6-26 to see what God is saying . . .
This is true, but it is no excuse.
Read Romans 1:18-25
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Was my basic assessment correct or not? What's the point in overcomplicating matters if the gist of what I stated is accurate? If it was then I don't believe it to be true. I think Calvinist theology is deeply flawed and incorrect.
I was asking you...
What difference does it make? If you've either been predestined to hell or Heaven then it's out of your control and at the whim of God.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
One cannot establish an accurate basic perspective according to an unbelieving "gist."
Your assessment is way off base . . .
But sovereign predestination is not the sum total of all that Holy Scripture reveals. The bible also teaches that Christians are commissioned to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ.
That is what my witness and testimony is, here on TOL. I proclaim what I believe. I proclaim the words of God. I proclaim both the Law of God and the Grace of God and leave any results from my witness to the will of God.
I am commissioned by my Lord to do so, for this is His very means of calling sinners to Himself. Not just me, but it is the testimony of any Christian preaching the faithful gospel message (Holy Scripture) that contains the power to save.
So it is important that I do what I am doing, even though I have no idea who, if any, will be given ears to hear God's message. That is not up to me. John 5:21
Nang
He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. His love and gift is not limited, but it must be received. He is the Savior of all who believe. Not all believe, something that is not God's fault or decree (Jn. 1; Lk. 7:30; Matthew 23:37; I Tim. 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; Jn. 3:16 unregenerate world, not elite elect).
Your view limits the love (impartial) and power of God/cross. By denying that man is a factor (free will), you are forced to a deductive error not supported by biblical principles/texts in context. Hyper-sovereignty/decretal views are not biblical and lead to problems.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
You are proof-texting an inaccurate assertion.
Failure to include the teaching of Isaiah 6:9-10, perverts your message.
God has determined and controls who will believe and who will not. Read Isaiah 6:9-10; 43:7-13 and the teachings of this truth in the N.T. by Jesus, John, and Paul:
Matthew 13:13-17, Mark 4:11-12, Luke 8:10, John 12:37-41,
Acts 28:24-28, Romans 11:7-8, II Corinthians 4:3-4
We can come to truth, only if and when we read Holy Scripture in its entirety.
Nang
blackbirdking
New member
You're making an assumption based on a presupposed idea.
You are assuming "before the foundation of the world" means before the creation of the universe, Adam,Eve, etc. Before you assume you need to ask some questions: Does what I assume, agree with all of scripture, and the known character of God as scripture portrays it? Does scripture allow for any interpretation other than what I believe?
If you compare the original languange for "foundation of the world" in all the other places "foundation of the world" is used you will find something very interesting. See Matthew 13:35; If you have a cross reference it takes you to Psalm 78:2; When you see what "foundation of the world" means it is completely different from what you're saying. It is referring to times of old, history, particularly the "Old Testament" times. Study it. If you have an open mind to truth you don't need to be afraid of it.
Does either way we interpret it agree completely with scripture and the revealed character of God? We must answer in the negative.
Nowhere does the character of God lend itself in any way to the notion that God created Adam knowing that Adam would bring a curse on all of creation and most of Adam's race would irrivocably be damned by God's decree; ie. predestination to hell. Neither does scripture teach that.
On the other hand, the revealed character of God ( justice, mercy, and faith) does agree with the concept that Adam should recieve the consequence of his action which he committed in breaking the known law of God. It also agrees with all of scripture. And, I would add, all Biblical principals.
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blackbirdking
New member
So all our behavior is a result of God calling the shots? Good and bad? If so, why doesn't God give faith to everybody and get everybody to be one of the elect? I would be glad to see scripture to make you're point.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
The Greek word for "foundation," as used in the Scripture references I gave, is "katabole" which denotes a "deposition," or "founding," or figuratively, a "conception." (Nothing about the word denotes the old days of history.)
Psalm 78:2 does not use similar language at all but is exemplary of teaching in parables, which is the subject of Matthew 13:35 and why the cross reference is made to the psalm.
But thanks for the lecture, anyway.
Nang
patricius79
New member
1 Jn 2:2, Rom 11:32, 1 Tim 2:1,4,6
flintstoned
New member
Even better, why doesn't god make himself known to all so there would be no doubts of his existence. Just because he exists, doesn't mean you are forced to worship him. It would not take away my free will just to know that he existed. I still would have had the choice on whether or not to have faith (trust) in him and to follow him. If god really wanted ALL to be save, why not at least give everyone the same chance by making himself known to all, so there would be no doubts of his existence?
In Ro. 1, Paul says that there is sufficient evidence for all men to know that GOD exists, but that we suppress that truth because it leads to accountability.
If anybody really wants to know, it can be known.
On the other hand GOD has left the fact of HIS existence somewhat obscure, to allow us to choose to look for HIM. HIS overwhelming presence would eliminate our choosing to cease our rebellion freely. However, there will come a time when HIS presence will be overwhemingly plain. As C.S. Lewis remarked, that will be a time when there will be no point in saying, "I now choose to willingly bow before GOD", when it is impossible to stand up. Our time of choosing is now!