The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Seydlitz77]

I think we are confusing the condition of Salvation with the offer of Salvation.

Salvation is freely offered to everyone without price (Isaiah 55:1 KJV) but the offer of salvation does not save you the offer only gives you the ability to choose salvation and be saved.

God is not partial nor is He a respecter persons. Christ died so that all men could be offered salvation but we know that not all men will be saved, many will exercise their freedom to choose another path.

By giving His Son God has done all He can to save us, from that point on Salvation is completely our responsibility to accept and embrace. To say that even one man did not have the offer of salvation made to them is to call God a partial being who is not worthy of worship.

 

[godrulz]

I concur that love is impartial.

2 Nephi 25:23? vs Eph. 2:8-10; Titus 3:5; Jn. 3:16!

http://carm.org/gospel-according-to-mormonism

Minimizing the perfection/holiness of God and maximizing the goodness of man leads to works salvation vs His finished work alone.

 

[Arthur Brain]

All mankind reject. Don't you see why God had to step in and save the Elects. If He didn't do that, all will go to hell. Simple truths that a child can understand. The unregenrates reject. God didn't cause them to. God caused the elects to be saved by giving them the "gift of faith". What is there not to understand? All mankind didn't want the gift of faith so God stepped in a gave the Elects the gift of faith. The rest rejects just as God foresaw and predestined. Those that reject are the ones that say all is saved and going to Heaven. They printed their own ticket to Heaven but made it for the wrong theater.

So what's to stop God doing this for everyone then? What marks you or any of the other 'elect' so special as to warrant sparing from eternal misery while your neighbour resides in there for ever? You talk about 'simple truths' as if 'rejection' equates to 'volitional outright rebellion' since birth or some such. Without this 'gift' you'd be just as 'unregenerate' as anyone else even though according to Nang she's no more deserving 'than those predestined to hell'. Furthermore she has no concrete answer as to the fates of the unborn and infants under such a doctrine either. lain:

 

[beloved57]

steko:

Yes, there is no question that Isaiah is speaking of the Israelites.

Only some of them, the remnant of the election of grace. Isaiah knew there was only a remnant in Israel that belonged to God as His People. Isa 1:

9Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Except for that very small remnant, the rest of the jews had no more a relationship with God as the sodomites had.

The rest of the sheep would be the gentile sheep as in Jn 10:16 That Christ died for, but all is still limited to His Sheep !

 

[beloved57]

sey:

I think we are confusing the condition of Salvation with the offer of Salvation.

Another Myth, that salvation is offered, sorry, but its given to Gods Sheep.

Jn 10:


27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Jn 17:


2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

 

[beloved57]

Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen/elect one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.

The Messiah/Jesus is GOD's 'elect'.

We become part of the election when we turn to GOD and trust in Christ's work upon the cross.

Jesus election is the election of His body as well !

 

[beloved57]

steko:

Heb 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone

Heb 9:12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

1Jn 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.


What does, "the sins of the whole world" mean?

2Co 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them,

None of these verses states that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, in fact, they all refer to His Sheep.

 

[Nick M]

I think we are confusing the condition of Salvation with the offer of Salvation.

Salvation is freely offered to everyone without price (Isaiah 55:1 KJV) but the offer of salvation does not save you the offer only gives you the ability to choose salvation and be saved.

God is not partial nor is He a respecter persons. Christ died so that all men could be offered salvation but we know that not all men will be saved, many will exercise their freedom to choose another path.

By giving His Son God has done all He can to save us, from that point on Salvation is completely our responsibility to accept and embrace. To say that even one man did not have the offer of salvation made to them is to call God a partial being who is not worthy of worship.

Spot on correct. Well put. And I will never get it. How hard is it to stand up and say I am guilty, and need a savior? I will never get it.

 

[beloved57]

False Christ's

Matt 24:24

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The False Christs here means, the different denominations saying we serve and witness of the True Christ. Also the false Christ, is that christ that is presented that He loved of all of humanity, and died for all of humanity without exception, to give them a chance at getting saved.

Thats a False christ. If anyone believes that lie, that Christ died for everyone's sins in the world without exception, you have been deceived, and unless God gives you repentance, you are only believing a lie 2 Thess 2:11

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 

[steko]

steko:




None of these verses states that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, in fact, they all refer to His Sheep.

If Jesus only died for the lost sheep of Israel, then we are yet in our sins and have no hope.

 

[godrulz]

So what's to stop God doing this for everyone then? What marks you or any of the other 'elect' so special as to warrant sparing from eternal misery while your neighbour resides in there for ever? You talk about 'simple truths' as if 'rejection' equates to 'volitional outright rebellion' since birth or some such. Without this 'gift' you'd be just as 'unregenerate' as anyone else even though according to Nang she's no more deserving 'than those predestined to hell'. Furthermore she has no concrete answer as to the fates of the unborn and infants under such a doctrine either. lain:

Rev. 1:17-18; Jn. 3:16 vs Jn. 3:36

The issue is receiving or rejecting the cure for sin and death. It is not about partiality or specialness. Receiving a free gift is not earning nor providing nor initiating it. Rejecting a free gift leaves the individual culpable, not the Giver. There is no salvation apart from Christ. Faith vs unbelief is a strong dualism in John. These conditions are the manward issue, while grace and Christ are the Godward issue.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Rev. 1:17-18; Jn. 3:16 vs Jn. 3:36

The issue is receiving or rejecting the cure for sin and death. It is not about partiality or specialness. Receiving a free gift is not earning nor providing nor initiating it. Rejecting a free gift leaves the individual culpable, not the Giver. There is no salvation apart from Christ. Faith vs unbelief is a strong dualism in John. These conditions are the manward issue, while grace and Christ are the Godward issue.

Well as you know I was addressing this towards Calvinists specifically so my argument was not with you. However, a 'free gift' to avoid eternal suffering after having life thrust upon oneself where such parameters are set does not exactly amount to much of a gift. That's like chucking a non swimmer a life raft after throwing them into the water to begin with. lain:

 

[godrulz]

Well as you know I was addressing this towards Calvinists specifically so my argument was not with you. However, a 'free gift' to avoid eternal suffering after having life thrust upon oneself where such parameters are set does not exactly amount to much of a gift. That's like chucking a non swimmer a life raft after throwing them into the water to begin with. lain:

Man got himself into the mess (Fall), and God provides the perfect remedy for it. Men curse God despite His mercy. They cannot be saved while rejecting His love. Issues of free will, justice, mercy, love, relationship, holiness, probation (now vs after death), etc. make your view untenable (not to mention the clear biblical teaching that contradicts it).

 

[Arthur Brain]

Spot on correct. Well put. And I will never get it. How hard is it to stand up and say I am guilty, and need a savior? I will never get it.

Get what? That people have doubts? You think everyone who hasn't seen as 'clearly' as you do so because they just want to rebel against God and go to eternal suffering? I doubt I'll ever 'get' such a dumb and basic assessment of the complexities of human nature so there you go I suppose...

lain:

 

[Arthur Brain]

Man got himself into the mess (Fall), and God provides the perfect remedy for it. Men curse God despite His mercy. They cannot be saved while rejecting His love. Issues of free will, justice, mercy, love, relationship, holiness, probation (now vs after death), etc. make your view untenable (not to mention the clear biblical teaching that contradicts it).

What do you mean 'man' got himself into the mess? God could have avoided any such consequence by not creating such an obviously flawed creature to begin with GR. Again, it's the 'life raft' scenario. Before the outset of creation God creates man knowing he'll fall and stumble, sets the parameters where any 'justice' can only take place after creation, gives them the 'ability' to suffer pain for an eternity and to 'appease' this 'justice' by clinging onto the raft after giving them the 'gift' of life in the first place. lain:

You can shout 'untenable' as you will GR. I've addressed your standard objections already in the other thread.

 

[godrulz]

What do you mean 'man' got himself into the mess? God could have avoided any such consequence by not creating such an obviously flawed creature to begin with GR. Again, it's the 'life raft' scenario. Before the outset of creation God creates man knowing he'll fall and stumble, sets the parameters where any 'justice' can only take place after creation, gives them the 'ability' to suffer pain for an eternity and to 'appease' this 'justice' by clinging onto the raft after giving them the 'gift' of life in the first place. lain:

You can shout 'untenable' as you will GR. I've addressed your standard objections already in the other thread.

Lucifer and Adam were not flawed because they had free moral agency. The possibility of great love and good necessitates the equal possibility (vs certainty) of great evil. The alternative is to not create or to create robots. The God who risks (John Sanders, Open Theist) is a truer model of providence than determinism/Calvinism.

It is a wrong assumption to think that God intended, desired, foreknew as a certainty the Fall. He had a contingent plan of redemption, but the Fall was not a necessity.

You make emotional arguments, but lack depth of understanding of the issues a Moral Governor faced in created non-robots.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Lucifer and Adam were not flawed because they had free moral agency. The possibility of great love and good necessitates the equal possibility (vs certainty) of great evil. The alternative is to not create or to create robots. The God who risks (John Sanders, Open Theist) is a truer model of providence than determinism/Calvinism.

It is a wrong assumption to think that God intended, desired, foreknew as a certainty the Fall. He had a contingent plan of redemption, but the Fall was not a necessity.

You make emotional arguments, but lack depth of understanding of the issues a Moral Governor faced in created non-robots.

Oh c'mon GR. Are you seriously telling me that God hadn't foresaw the weakness of man and any subsequent 'falling'? There's a myriad verses in the bible that speak of God's plans from the outset of creation and His knowledge in such regard and the reconciliation of said creation.

You're simply trying to undermine any counter position as 'emotional' without even attempting to address the logic. You are not the 'moral governor' and your 'lacking depth of understanding' rubbish is as patronising as it's irrelevant. As ironic as it stands you do the best impression of a programmed robot as anyone on this forum.

Answer this. If I build a swimming pool, throw my kid in there and after a couple of minutes throw him a life raft when he's struggling to stay afloat am I giving him a gift? Can you actually give an honest answer to this without prevarication and sound bites?

 

[blackbirdking]

All mankind reject. Don't you see why God had to step in and save the Elects. If He didn't do that, all will go to hell. Simple truths that a child can understand. The unregenrates reject. God didn't cause them to. God caused the elects to be saved by giving them the "gift of faith". What is there not to understand? All mankind didn't want the gift of faith so God stepped in a gave the Elects the gift of faith. The rest rejects just as God foresaw and predestined. Those that reject are the ones that say all is saved and going to Heaven. They printed their own ticket to Heaven but made it for the wrong theater.

You said, "Perhaps God put Open Theism in front of you so you would reject Him." I thought you were serious when you said that to GR. Were you? Do you think God causes people to reject?

 

[blackbirdking]

Oh c'mon GR. Are you seriously telling me that God hadn't foresaw the weakness of man and any subsequent 'falling'? There's a myriad verses in the bible that speak of God's plans from the outset of creation and His knowledge in such regard and the reconciliation of said creation.

Answer this. If I build a swimming pool, throw my kid in there and after a couple of minutes throw him a life raft when he's struggling to stay afloat am I giving him a gift? Can you actually give an honest answer to this without prevarication and sound bites?

If I build a swimming pool for the good of the family and my son falls in: would it be a gift if then I threw him a life raft? I would love to hear your Biblical argument using "a myriad verses" that God knew Adam would fall.

 

[beloved57]

If Jesus only died for the lost sheep of Israel, then we are yet in our sins and have no hope.

Not if one is of the Lost Sheep of Israel. Paul declares that God hath rasied up unto Israel a Saviour Acts 13:23

23Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

He as Saviour giveth Israel repentace and forgiveness of sins

Acts 5:31

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Israel means His Chosen People, Jew or Gentile.